Guns on Campus...

[stevie_d_64]

http://www.sanmarcosrecord.com/local/lo ... 03753.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Guns on campus

Does New York massacre give new firepower to bills filed in Austin?

By Anita Miller
News Editor

San Marcos — When police in Binghamton, N.Y. went looking for the gunman who killed 13 people before committing suicide on Friday, the Associated Press reported they led out “a number of men in plastic handcuffs” while they sorted out who was who.

Had there been someone in that immigrant community center licensed to carry a concealed handgun who had drawn their weapon and ethnically resembled the shooter, police might have shot him by mistake.

Tragic as it is, the New York case may serve to support the point some in local law enforcement have made regarding Sen. Jeff Wentworth’s (R-San Antonio) legislation that would allow those with concealed handgun licenses to carry their weapons on the campuses of Texas colleges and universities.

Texas State Police Captain Paul Chapa acknowledges that such a shooting could happen here, but if it does and police were to encounter a student with a drawn but legal weapon, “We’re not going to ask where the concealed handgun permit is, we’re going to shoot.”

Chapa, like the rest of the university police force, has undergone “active shooter” training at the San Marcos-based Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training (ALERRT).

“You go in and isolate the threat. If you go in and find someone with a gun and the call is for a man with a gun, that’s your approach,” he said.

“We don’t think more guns on campus necessarily makes a safer campus,” said Diana Hendricks, ALERRT’s director of communications and governmental relations.

http://www.alerrt.com/index.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hendricks said ALERRT has “worked closely with university police departments around the country” and believes that proper training of campus police comes closer to ensuring the safety of students.

Wentworth’s bill has yet to reach the full Senate. Its language is very near that of similar legislation he filed in 2007.

Chapa said a position paper created back then by the Texas Association of College and University Police Administrators opposing allowing concealed weapons on campus is still valid today.

It states, “with regard to crimes against persons which could potentially justify the use of deadly force, such as the use of a firearm, individuals are generally safer on the campuses of institutions of higher learning in this State than they are in the communities in which the campuses are located. The majority of reported on campus crimes” at state colleges and universities, the paper continues, “have no violent component, rendering the issue of concealed carry of firearms on campus virtually meaningless in the prevention of campus crime.”

Chapa said the primary crime on the Texas State campus is theft, which raises the possibility that concealed weapons could be stolen. “If a student is going to store their gun in their book bag, we’re going to have an increase in theft of weapons.”

Wentworth’s bill, and companion legislation in the House of Representatives, “looks like it’s getting a lot of support,” Chapa said. “All we can do is kind of prepare for it. Our focus is not to deny the right of anyone to carry a weapon, he said, adding the mission of university police is “to provide for the safety and security of the communities we have sworn to protect.”

Wentworth’s’ bill is SB 1164.

[stevie_d_64]

So it is the conclusion of the ALERRT staff, that it is ok for a "trained" Law Enforcement officer to shoot first and ask questions later if they are called to an "active shooter" incident, and they see a non-uniformed person with a gun in their hands...

You know, it's getting to the point that if one of us were in a situation like this, we might get killed, regardless...

I'm still parusing this ALERRT website...They don't say much about themselves as yet, that I can see...Who the heck are these people??? Anyone of our Law Enforcement members here ever heard or been thru this training??? I would sure like to know what it is that they say about the possibilities of a licensed citizen encounter being involved in an incident they may be called to???

With all the hoops and scrutiny non LEO's go thru to obtain the permission slip to carry in this and other states...I feel kinda threatened by this revelation...Maybe I should just hang it up and not carry anymore...That might make it easier for officers like Chapa and this ALERRT communications director Diana Hendricks "feel" better...

Sorry if I appear to be a little un-cool about this, but I felt I had better illustrate the absurd, by being absurd, about these comments in this article...

[AEA]

So, do they also agree that responding units can stand around outside till everyone finishes their donuts before actually doing something and going inside?

If that is the case, then fine, the CHL persons will have already neutralized the threat and he/she/them will have their guns secured and waiting for LEO to enter.

Just FYI for all these fools.......
The people that are inside a location where a mass shooting is taking place are better about figuring out who is who than a bunch of swat coming in after the carnage is committed.

[kirock7]

If that is the case, then fine, the CHL persons will have already neutralized the threat and he/she/them will have their guns secured and waiting for LEO to enter.

Just FYI for all these fools.......
The people that are inside a location where a mass shooting is taking place are better about figuring out who is who than a bunch of swat coming in after the carnage is committed.

Dang straight! If I'm facing death in a crazed person's suicide run... I'm going to do my best to survive. I'm sure there were folks with cell phones that would have let the police outside (waiting for the carnage to end) know that someone had taken out the perp.
How would they know me (CHL) from an off-duty LEO? Their argument just doesn't hold water.
I work on a state campus and if you think the campus police are going to save you... well, that perp is going to harsh your dream mellow, dude.

[CWOOD]

Disclaimer: I am biased, but...

It seems to me that the events lend SUPPORT to Sen. Wentworth's bill rather that to his opponets. If just ONE of the victims had been legally armed the bulk of this tragedy might have been averted...no guarantees, but a lot better chance than they had as it turned out.

[stevie_d_64]

I linked the ALERRT website into the article...

I tend to enjoy looking deeper and deeper into the depths of whatever they feel like revealing to the public...This is not at all paranoia, but it is something I like to do to see what jibes and what tends to lead to more questions...

I believe they do provide a good service and training to those that desire it...

Bottom line is that the statements she made, and one of their graduates made bothered me slightly...Just a little bit...once again...

[kalipsocs]

Ha, I wonder how out of context those statements were. I can't imagine with all the stories of undercover LEOs taking down armed assailants in convenient stores and gas stations that uniformed officers would come in blasting. Officers usually face just as much or maybe more scrutiny in using their weapons than the armed populous. Once again, these arguments fail to deal with truths. I don't see a college campus as any different than a nursing home, an civic center, a grocery store, my home, etc. It can happen any place at any time. It seems that the people that are opposed to this movement jump from one argument to the next. And then if you do happen to convince them that all their points are erroneous (which is rare), its a "well you're still wrong." I for one will be wearing my empty holster...all week, every single day....in as part of the SCCC protest. I welcome all arguments My only wish is I had the leadership skills and time to take the position of campus leader of the SCCC movement at Texas State!

[Lodge2004]

Had there been someone in that immigrant community center licensed to carry a concealed handgun who had drawn their weapon and ethnically resembled the shooter, police might have shot him by mistake.

True, but in this situation thats assuming the person would have still been standing there with their firearm out of the holster an hour and a half after the shooting.

A more logical sequence of events would be...an armed citizen would have stopped the threat, reholstered, called the police and then started administering aid to the wounded while waiting for help to arrive.

[Greybeard]

Earlier this morning, this link included only the first 3 or 4 sentences:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090408/ap_ ... _shootings" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

29 mins ago
BINGHAMTON, N.Y. – The man who gunned down 13 people at an upstate New York immigration center fired 98 shots from two handguns in a little more than a minute, police said Wednesday.

Ballistics reports showed Jiverly Wong fired 87 times from a 9mm Beretta and 11 times from a .45-caliber handgun.

Police said almost all 13 victims died instantly. Four others were wounded but survived. Wong killed himself as police were rushing to the scene. He was found with a satchel containing several full ammunition clips.

Police have speculated that Wong, who was ethnically Chinese but was from Vietnam, was angry over losing a job and frustrated about his poor English-language skills.

Wong, wearing a bulletproof vest, barged into the American Civic Association community center Friday morning and started shooting. Two employees and 11 immigrants taking an English class died in the assault.

Meanwhile, WBNG-TV in Binghamton has obtained recordings of some of the communications between dispatchers and police on the scene.

At one point, officers on the scene were told about the vehicle Wong used to block a door at the rear of the building.

"Be advised guys, you may have somebody come out the back door, so keep alert," says a man's voice.

"This door's barricaded with the, uh, suspect's vehicle," is the answer from the scene.

"Use cover, don't ... don't do anything foolish back there," the first voice replies.

The rampage left the small classroom at the American Civic Association in ruins, said Police Chief Joseph Zikuski. Desks were found flipped over and bullet holes riddled the space, he told The Binghamton Press & Sun-Bulletin.

Police found full magazine clips on the ground inside the center, suggesting Wong had dropped them while reloading. Police found an empty clip that had the capacity for 30 bullets. A laser sight was also found at the scene.

Zikuski said it was not known if any of the students tried to fight back. Their desks faced away from the door Wong used to enter the classroom full of immigrants learning English.

In the recordings obtained by WBNG, a male voice says early reports are the gunman is dead.

"If you have any contact with people in that building, they think the assailant may have did himself," the man says.

A female voice is later heard saying, "That's affirmative, two victims, female, gunshot wound to the abdomen under a desk on the first floor and a subject laying on the ground in front of the reception area, unknown male or female, unknown life status."

The first calls to 911 came at 10:30 a.m. Police arriving on the scene at 10:33 a.m. did not hear any shots.

Police have said Wong had been practicing shooting at a local firing range in recent weeks.

Wong had a New York state pistol permit, first obtained in 1997, with the two handguns used in the shooting registered to it.
------------------------------------

And sadly, there was a "slide show" that included a deceased professor, which to me, said, YES, if he had been armed, he might could have limited the carnage. And had PLENTY of time to reholster.

[Keith B]

Wong had a New York state pistol permit, first obtained in 1997, with the two handguns used in the shooting registered to it.

SOOOOO this guy had at least one of these pistols 11 years, both were registered and totally legal. Well, that pretty much discounts the gun show loophole and waiting period the Brady Bunch is saying is a big problem.

[txmatt]

with regard to crimes against persons which could potentially justify the use of deadly force, such as the use of a firearm, individuals are generally safer on the campuses of institutions of higher learning in this State than they are in the communities in which the campuses are located.

Sure does me a lot of good when I have to walk unarmed into that community which is less safe than campus in the middle of the night because I'm not allowed to be armed whilst on campus! And I don't have it nearly as bad as people at schools like UofH which are located in areas with rather high crime.

I agree with their assessment. The chance of me needing a weapon in a campus building (where it is currently prohibited by law) is very, very low. However, if I can't have a weapon in the building then I can't have it in the parking lot in the middle of the night, or walking home off of campus- both places where the chance of needing that weapon (while still low) rises dramatically.

[Charles L. Cotton]

http://www.sanmarcosrecord.com/local/lo ... 03753.html

Guns on campus

Does New York massacre give new firepower to bills filed in Austin?

By Anita Miller
News Editor

San Marcos —
. . .

Texas State Police Captain Paul Chapa acknowledges that such a shooting could happen here, but if it does and police were to encounter a student with a drawn but legal weapon, “We’re not going to ask where the concealed handgun permit is, we’re going to shoot.”

He may well come to regret those words, along with any officer foolish enough to take them to heart. What an asinine statement.

Chas.

[Greybeard]

Quote: "SOOOOO this guy had at least one of these pistols 11 years, both were registered and totally legal."

And was this not the same guy dishonorably discharged while in Marine Corp boot camp ?

[Keith B]

http://www.sanmarcosrecord.com/local/lo ... 03753.html

Guns on campus

Does New York massacre give new firepower to bills filed in Austin?

By Anita Miller
News Editor

San Marcos —
. . .

Texas State Police Captain Paul Chapa acknowledges that such a shooting could happen here, but if it does and police were to encounter a student with a drawn but legal weapon, “We’re not going to ask where the concealed handgun permit is, we’re going to shoot.”

He may well come to regret those words, along with any officer foolish enough to take them to heart. What an asinine statement.

Chas.

Yeah, he is a shining example of someone who has apparently been promoted to their level of incompetence; aka The Peter Principle

[Purplehood]

http://www.sanmarcosrecord.com/local/lo ... 03753.html

Guns on campus

Does New York massacre give new firepower to bills filed in Austin?

By Anita Miller
News Editor

San Marcos —
. . .

Texas State Police Captain Paul Chapa acknowledges that such a shooting could happen here, but if it does and police were to encounter a student with a drawn but legal weapon, “We’re not going to ask where the concealed handgun permit is, we’re going to shoot.”

He may well come to regret those words, along with any officer foolish enough to take them to heart. What an asinine statement.

Chas.

Yeah, he is a shining example of someone who has apparently been promoted to their level of incompetence; aka The Peter Principle

A dishonorable from Boot Camp? You have to really really make a conscientious and determined effort in order to get a DD out of Boot Camp. The norm is to simply be administratively released from Boot Camp to avoid all the trouble. This guy must have been a real jewel.