Guns on Campus...

[Greybeard]

Again, I'm not certain if this is the same loon, but I recall one of 'em recently had been booted for throwing a food tray at a drill sgt. ...

[stevie_d_64]

http://www.sanmarcosrecord.com/local/lo ... 03753.html

Guns on campus

Does New York massacre give new firepower to bills filed in Austin?

By Anita Miller
News Editor

San Marcos —
. . .

Texas State Police Captain Paul Chapa acknowledges that such a shooting could happen here, but if it does and police were to encounter a student with a drawn but legal weapon, “We’re not going to ask where the concealed handgun permit is, we’re going to shoot.”

He may well come to regret those words, along with any officer foolish enough to take them to heart. What an asinine statement.

Chas.

Exactly one of my biggest points to all of this...

And something that makes me wonder how deep the rabbit hole goes at the ALERRT facility...

[tesla]

Texas State Police Captain Paul Chapa acknowledges that such a shooting could happen here, but if it does and police were to encounter a student with a drawn but legal weapon, “We’re not going to ask where the concealed handgun permit is, we’re going to shoot.”

I wonder if this statement is based on the aggressive "active shooter" training and tactics reported on in this article:

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter ... e-killers/

From the article:

“Officers need to understand valid military principles that apply to these calls, such as speed, surprise and violence of action,” Borsch insists. “They need to learn how to close in and finish the fight with aggression, having and keeping the ‘momentum of battle’ on their side. The idea is to keep the adversary off-balance by forcing him always to react to your actions, rather than, after contact, reacting to him.”

For example, once an active killer is spotted, Borsch favors the swift application of deadly force over seeking defensive cover in most instances. “An unintentional consequence of going to cover may be to lose sight of the offender, allowing him to gain the momentum of battle and shoot more defenseless innocents until he says it’s over.”

Anyone know if this type of aggressive single entry response has been adopted by police forces in Texas? While I obviously agree with the idea of moving quickly to stop active shooters, any CHL caught in the middle of one of these incidents could be in significant danger of being misidentified and shot by arriving LEO's.

[stevie_d_64]

I have seen on another thread that the students at UT are planning a "walkout" to protest the Campus Carry bill in work right now in the State Legislature...

I made the suggestion that if we can coordinate this quick enough, that a counter protest should be made up of those of us with openly displayed "empty" holsters that would meetup at the clock tower to counter the walkout...Remember the students who did this around the country when all of this began...They went to school with empty holsters...I thought it was an effective message...

Obviously we would not need to engage or explain our actions at all to anyone...

This walkout is planned for this Thursday...

Since this is right on the heels of all these Tea Parties...I figure those of us in that crowd, who might also be in this crowd, might be interested in this event...

Thoughts???

[DoubleJ]

I wonder how it all went!

[surprise_i'm_armed]

Regarding the perp in the Binghamton, NY shooting:
He may have had his NY pistol permit since 1997, but it is unclear whether he
had owned the handguns used in the shooting (Beretta 9MM and Beretta .45) since 1997.
At one point he had 6 handguns of various brands and calibers.

He was a steady customer at a gun shop and frequently bought handguns,
kept them for a short time, then came back to the gun store and traded them for
something different.

He was wearing body armor during the incident and had hundreds of rounds of ammo
in charged magazines.

*******************************************************************************************************

Regarding the USMC connection:
The shooter in Pittsburgh, PA was the one who had been kicked out of the Corps.
He had assaulted his DI so they kicked him to the curb.

[txfireguy2003]

I didn't take the time to read through the entire post as it's almost 0100 hrs, but incase it has not been posted already, the purpose of the Alerrt training, or Active Shooter training is to address the problems found in the Columbine and later mass shootings. The investigations found the the officers arrived on scene, and as per their training and policies, stoodby outside and called for SWAT. While awaiting SWAT, gunshot were continuing to ring out and people were still dying. The "solution" is for officers to be trained to form a small team of the first 3-4 arriving officers to make entry and stop the threat. That is what the active shooter classes are aimed at, getting the first few officers on scene off of the street and into the action to stop the shooting. Their tactic in this scenario is to find find the shooter and neutralize him as quickly as possible.

[SlowDave]

http://www.sanmarcosrecord.com/local/lo ... 03753.html

Guns on campus

Does New York massacre give new firepower to bills filed in Austin?

By Anita Miller
News Editor

San Marcos —
. . .

Texas State Police Captain Paul Chapa acknowledges that such a shooting could happen here, but if it does and police were to encounter a student with a drawn but legal weapon, “We’re not going to ask where the concealed handgun permit is, we’re going to shoot.”

He may well come to regret those words, along with any officer foolish enough to take them to heart. What an asinine statement.

Chas.

Amen brother. That's like posting a "SUE THE HELL OUTTA ME" sign across the freeway. He or his guys may shoot, but they're gonna have no defense whatsoever when it comes to the following court action. And now he's publicly stated that he will negligently shoot at criminal or innocent alike, even with the foreknowledge that it could be a CHL holder in a fully legal mode. Well, no offense to anyone here, but we always said there was a reason the campus cops were CAMPUS cops and hadn't made it to the big time.

Maybe Chapa shoulda minded the advice: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." Asinine is a good word for it. Thanks Charles.

[SlowDave]

More from the policeone.com article linked above. Characteristics determined from the review of >90 active shooter incidents:
---------------
• 98% of active killers act alone.

• 80% have long guns, 75% have multiple weapons (about 3 per incident), and they sometimes bring hundreds of extra rounds of ammunition to the shooting site.

• Despite such heavy armaments and an obsession with murder at close range, they have an average hit rate of less than 50%.

• They strike “stunned, defenseless innocents via surprise ambush. On a level playing field, the typical active killer would be a no-contest against anyone reasonably capable of defending themselves.”

• “They absolutely control life and death until they stop at their leisure or are stopped.” They do not take hostages, do not negotiate.

• They generally try to avoid police, do not hide or lie in wait for officers and “typically fold quickly upon armed confrontation.”

• 90% commit suicide on-site. “Surrender or escape attempts are unlikely.”
-----------------
Most interesting is the finding (too strong a word?) that most are relatively cowardly and are not prepared to defend themselves but quit when confronted. Specifically, with regards to a CHL holder being there: "On a level playing field, the typical active killer would be a no-contest against anyone reasonably capable of defending themselves.” Kind of removes the argument that an untrained CHL would be of no use in these situations. The context is the article is talking to cops, so the "reasonably capable of defending themselves" might be a higher standard than it sounds, but the guy's point is that it does not take a SWAT team. It takes SOMEONE who is there NOW. Hmmm...

[ddurkof]

I worked for over ten years and a campus police officer in a medium sized college, with more than 25 years total police experience most of which has been as a line supervisor. We had a very good response time to any call, normally just a few minutes.

That being said, possession of firearms by CHLs on campuses is a political issue that the college administration does not want. For the most part these administrators are very liberal and have a disdain for firearms. Most would prefer their campus police did not have weapons. Chief's are appointed by these same administrators and therefore are against the possession, not so much for safety reasons, but for political reasons.

I have been through an active shooter program. It is a good first step, but training is not made perfect in 16 hours. Most police officers are not that good of marksmen, and for the most part they don't have to be. I have killed many trees (paperwork) as a police officer and I have never, thank GOD, had to shoot anyone. Training is an expense that the administrators don't want to pay. Firearms qualification happens once a year, by law, and it is a minimal standard that the officer has to be able to meet to keep his firearms certification. It is low pressure and shot at known distances, most of the time the longest distance shot is 25 yards. This is not bashing the police, but merely a statement of fact.

My position is that from a safety point of view there is no decrease in safety by allowing CHLs carry on campus any more than there is in the general population. Many CHLs practice much more often than police officers, many shoot IDPA and other competitions, that is much more challenging than the yearly law enforcement qualification.

Would a CHL be able to handle the situation as well as a "trained officer?" I don't know, but if we go on past experience I would say that it would at least give them a "fighting chance." Until CHLs are allowed on campus and are at the scene of a violent encounter, we might never know.

But police don't have the best track record to say that they are the only ones uniquely qualified to handle these situations. Again, I am not bashing the police, I am just stating my opinion having been a police officer for many years.

As for the gentleman that made the comment that the police would shoot first and ask questions later. That is a macho response that is 180 degrees from what real life is about. I have been in shoot / don't shoot situations more times than I care to remember and officers are more than willing to wait until the very last millisecond to shoot someone and there is normally a great deal of shouting going on. If you are unlucky enough to be in an on campus shooting, you will know the police are coming with plenty of time to secure your weapon.

When seconds count we are only minutes away. Ask any police officer that has been in a knock down drag out fight if they want their back up seconds away, or minutes away? Even a short fight, with no weapons, lasts a long time. I can only imagine waiting 90 minutes for the SWAT team to make entry, it must seem like an eternity.

[stevie_d_64]

I worked for over ten years and a campus police officer in a medium sized college, with more than 25 years total police experience most of which has been as a line supervisor. We had a very good response time to any call, normally just a few minutes.

Good points!!!

The one thing right off the top of my head about a non-campus police officer intervention in a school shooting incident was at the Appalachian University a few years ago...A couple of students ran out to their vehicles and retrieved their handguns and confronted the shooter who quickly capitulated before he was "stopped" by return fire...Basically...

The mere fact that they had to run to their vehicles has always kinda stuck in my craw for some reason...But that is only to the best of my recollection...

[stevie_d_64]

An unsurprising update...

I sent an email to the ALERRT organization respectfully asking for some clarification to their statements, and what we as law-abiding citizens should do if we are caught up in a shooting incident, knowing that some sort of law enforcement response was on the way, that what should a CHL "like one of us should do?"...

[insert chirping cricket sound effects]

Not that I was really expecting an answer...But you'd think any kind of response would have been made...But not...That proves to me a few things about them...

Scrutiny is a two-way street...

[casingpoint]

“We’re not going to ask where the concealed handgun permit is, we’re going to shoot.”

An awful lot of non-LEO's hold the same sentiment. Cops, of course should know better. There's at least on in Texas who doesn't.