Whats the best Advanced Training school in Texas?

[bdickens]

360 Training at Memorial Shooting Center here in Houston offers Combat Focus Shooting. I'm saving my pennies for that one. I like Rob Pincus' book a lot.

[Skiprr]

That place aside, as for more frequent and easily obtained training, I would like some good suggestions for the Houston Area.

Any links for these "Traveling Wonders" of pistol training? How to find them and when theyll come around?

Some examples of Houston-based training:

• 360 Tactical Training; home base is Memorial Shooting Center, also teach at Impact Zone: http://www.360tacticaltraining.com/
• Brian Hoffner; home base is Top Gun, but he also teaches in other locations around the city: http://www.hoffners.com/; Hoffner also conducts evening "mini-classes" at Top Gun on Wednesdays and Shiloh on Fridays
• MAST Solutions; home base in Katy: http://www.mastsolutions.com/
• Texas Small Arms Academy, Tim and Phil Oxley; based out of Impact Zone: http://www.theimpactzonerange.com/
• Gregg Garrett offers evening "mini-classes" Tuesdays at Top Gun, and Wednesdays at Shiloh; see the respective ranges for scheduling
• Professional Defense Solutions International; home base is the Woodlands: http://www.pdtgroup.net/firearms.aspx
• For NRA certified courses, try ArGent Firearms Training; home base is PSC: http://www.argenttraining.com/

As for folks who travel into Texas, and sometimes Houston, to teach, here is a small sampling:

• John Farnam, Defense Training International: http://www.defense-training.com/
• Gabe Suarez, Suarez international: http://www.suarezinternational.com/
• Rob Pincus, I.C.E. Training: http://www.icetraining.us/
• Craig Douglas, ShivWorks: http://www.shivworks.com/
• James Yeager, Tactical Response: http://www.tacticalresponse.com/
• Steve Claggett, Tactical Skills and Strategies: http://tacskills.com/
• Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch (infrequently travels to Texas, and the courses fill up fast; he'll be in DFW January and February 2010, and only the February Urban Rifle course has any slots left; ALL of 2009, all course locations, is sold out): http://www.thunderranchinc.com/

[G.C.Montgomery]

I realize that I may be in a minority with my opinion, but I believe that the best schools for combat handgun-craft are operated by people who have real world experience in being shot-at and shooting back.

Don't be afraid to ask your potential instructor(s) for their bona fides in this regard as there are numerous Walter Mittys out there who are great technicians-with-theories, but are very lean on the experience of actually having had to apply those theories.

I had this long reply written up for you on this but, then I fat fingered my keyboard with my infamous trigger finger and actually managed to dislodge several keys in the process. Anyway, I stumbled across an article by Gabe Suarez. It's a long read but I think it's worth it.

http://www.defensereview.com/gunfightin ... be-suarez/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And Skiprr; it's probably worth mentioning that Gregg is no longer associated with Top Gun. I have taken the lead on Tuesdays because I felt someone had to do it. That's not saying Gregg left the group but he's just not associated with Top Gun directly. Gregg is now doing a slightly longer session at the Impact Zone one Saturday a month for 3-4 hours, we just haven't formalized it. And when our Tuesday nights don't require the use of a range or we do force on force, we'll probably do those sessions at Comp-Tac's offices.

Gregg has been a mentor and a big brother to me since I was a "kid" and I can't thank him enough for that. Still, I know there is only so much I can offer. So I've asked Matt Brockman of MAST Solutions to help and we are moving foward. The Tuesday group is also establishing a base skill level that shooters have to meet to allow us to continue to grow and keep our environment safe. Also worth mentioning is this month, our Tuesday regulars will get to attend a MAST Solutions, Combat Handgun class substantial discount over the regular cost. So Tuesday nights at Top Gun or Wednesdays at Shiloh are still some of the best instruction one can get for the cost of a range fee.

[Skiprr]

Thanks for the update, Mr. Montgomery. With you and Matt teaming up to take the helm, Tuesday evenings at Top Gun sound worthwhile for any serious gunman. And I'll need to ask Gregg about the new Saturday at Impact Zone. Four hours on the range can be a perfect full-day experience for us more...er...mature shooters.

[Abraham]

CompVest,

My post regarding team tactics wasn't clear.

My point is that taking military or police team tactics isn't (my opinion) very practical for the everyday person.

Certainly, civilian team tactics employed by husband and wife (or other civilian scenario) make great sense.

Some years back, I asked an instructor teaching a "team tactics" course I thought I was interested in, about the particulars of the course. The first thing he talked about was learning how to shoot from a moving car... I was immediately turned off. He listed other scenarios that seemed far outside the likely situations for the average citizen.

Yeah, I suppose shooting from a moving vehicle could happen in a civilian scenario, but it's not terribly likely and I don't want to spend my time and money on a course that hardly applies to a CHL holder.

I want to take courses that have more likely (at least the world I live in) scenarios. Like "walking" to and from my vehicle. Or home invasion. Or armed robbers holding up a bank/store/etc. while I'm in it. Or being car jacked. Or, well, the list of possibilities for a civilian are many. Courses that address those situations make more common sense for me.

Having to shoot from a vehicle?

Unlikely I'll ever need that skill.

[jbirds1210]

Certainly, civilian team tactics employed by husband and wife (or other civilian scenario) make great sense.

I agree.

I have had the team tactics training in both a civilian and law enforcement setting and experienced litte difference (size of the egos mostly). The basic principles are the exact same.

I would much rather have CompVest clearing an area with me than MANY, no MOST cops I have shot with. I trust her.

Jason

[CompVest]

Wow what a compliment! Thank you!

[roberts]

Unlikely I'll ever need that skill.

It's unlikely any of us will have to fire a shot in self defense in civilian life. I carry a gun anyway.

[CompVest]

For me training isn't about learning the skills I will most likely need but being ready for anything. Learn the basics, practice the basics, learn advanced skills, practice advanced skills, and then seek out everything else. Even if you never need it or use it - learning is fun and will without a doubt make a person a better shooter or better at whatever it is you choose to become good at.

[nuparadigm]

...

I had this long reply written up for you on this but, then I fat fingered my keyboard with my infamous trigger finger and actually managed to dislodge several keys in the process. Anyway, I stumbled across an article by Gabe Suarez. It's a long read but I think it's worth it.

http://www.defensereview.com/gunfightin ... be-suarez/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;]

I read it and noted that Suarez does have the bona fides to which I referred to my my post above. He even writes that they are helpful and will authenticate and instructor's technical and tactical proficiency. It is also true that I still pig-headedly believe that the absolute best life saving advice and training will come from one who had to personally employ the knowledge. Others may possess the same knowledge but it isn't quite the same and having "seen the coyote smile" for one's self and lived to correct and overcome the mistakes made and to improve upon strengths performed.

[Rugrash]

I have no experience with them, but I have heard great things about CSAT - Combat Shooting and Tactics.

They do a lot of LEO courses, but have a few civilian ones every year. They are located in Nacogdoches and run by Paul Howe, who is extremely well respected and has the real world experience to back up the training he offers. At some point I heard that he is one of the Delta Force snipers who volunteered to drop in at the helicopter wreckage in Mogadishu, but refused to let them use his name in Blackhawk Down.

http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Be sure to let us know what you decide on and how it is!

+1 on CSAT

I took the tactical rifle course (as a civilian) back in February and it was amazing. He's been involved in some serious situations (Mogadishu) and he knows what he's talking about. He knows what works and what does not. I learned alot of skills and did things that I didn't think were possible for me to do. The first :30 mins of the class had me pulling all the tacticool accessories that I had hanging on my rifle. A couple of my friends took his tactical pistol class last month and both enjoyed it as well. He's working on a new home defense class that I hope to take sometime in the future.

-Rug

[G.C.Montgomery]

...

I had this long reply written up for you on this but, then I fat fingered my keyboard with my infamous trigger finger and actually managed to dislodge several keys in the process. Anyway, I stumbled across an article by Gabe Suarez. It's a long read but I think it's worth it.

http://www.defensereview.com/gunfightin ... be-suarez/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;]

I read it and noted that Suarez does have the bona fides to which I referred to my my post above. He even writes that they are helpful and will authenticate and instructor's technical and tactical proficiency. It is also true that I still pig-headedly believe that the absolute best life saving advice and training will come from one who had to personally employ the knowledge. Others may possess the same knowledge but it isn't quite the same and having "seen the coyote smile" for one's self and lived to correct and overcome the mistakes made and to improve upon strengths performed.

I never said personal combat experience wasn't helpful. I know it is because it provides a unique understanding of the fact that even when you do everything right, you can still lose and that "winning" may in fact mean dying. I wouldn't say you are pig headed to prefer having an instructor who can offer such experience. But as Gabe pointed out, its awful hard to "require" such experience because it's realtively rare and most us would prefer not to stare death in the face if we have a choice in the matter.

There's also the issue that relatively few of those with "bona fides" were anything more than unconsciously incompetent novices on the day they "saw the coyote smile." By nothing more than will and the grace of G_d they lived to tell the tale and realized they were unprepared for the ride. The point lurking here is there just aren't that many Paul Howe's or Larry Vickers' in the world and if you ignore anyone and everyone who doesn't have their credentials, you are still missing alot because not everyone with "bona fides" can actually offer lessons learned or competently discuss how their superior skills helped them win the day.

I'm reminded of story of a DPS officer who turned to run from a suspect when he got caught behind the curve. The trooper began firing wildly over his shoulder in a move that would have right at home in "Blazing Saddles"...A lucky round, fired over the trooper's shoulder while the gun was inverted, caught the suspect and planted him where he stood, DRT. Yeah; the officer won the fight but, just barely and he couldn't begin to tell you how it happend were it not for video!

The bottom line passage from Gabe's article that sums the experience question up for me is this one:

The big question is simply this. Does a firearms instructor need to have combat experience? As one whose been on a first name basis with Ol’ Jumbo the Elephant, my answer may surprise a few. No, combat experience is not essential to be a good firearms instructor, but it can be helpful.

[Skiprr]

+1, G.C.

Defensereview.com seems to be down right now, so I can't read Gabe's article. But that never stops me from tossing in my two cents.

Something worth mentioning is a point that Grossman made in On Combat: that there is a distinct difference between fighting tactics in military conflict compared to civilian law enforcement...and I would also add civilian non-law enforcement.

You can find highly competent, highly trained, senior law enforcement officers--even SWAT--who have never had to fire a shot in the line of duty. In fact, fewer LEOs--including Feds like FBI and DEA--have had to shoot in the line of duty than have not.

Conversely, particularly during war-time, you can also find a significant number of young, ex-military personnel who have "seen the coyote smile" and fired many rounds in battle. Some ex-military operatives are exceptional--guys like Paul Howe, Kelly McCann, Glen Boodry--and they study, analyze, and understand the full gamut of tactics and training from the average CCW/CHL carrier to SpecOps missions.

But with scores of personnel rolling off duty in the Middle East and moving into the civilian sector, and with a burgeoning business in firearms instruction that is accompanying the last eight months of the gun-and-ammo buying frenzy, I'm watching new training schools appear on the Internet at a faster pace than I've ever seen. Many of these schools profile instructors with solid military credentials, I'm sure what nuparadigm would accept as bona fides.

Many of these recent ex-military personnel may be excellent civilian instructors. But, in my opinion, it is not the fact that they have fired rounds in combat that would make them so. There are totally different force-continuum dynamics and legalities at play for a uniformed Marine on patrol in the outskirts of Fallujah than for John Doe, wearing shorts and a Hawaiian shirt, stopping at a supermarket in suburban Houston. Most military small-arms training supports suppressive fire in CQB. That ain't gonna work on Fry Road in the Kroger's parking lot.

So for me, it's reputation, references, and total body of work that weigh far more heavily in instructor selection than whether or not the instructor may have, at some time, fired shots against a threat. We can find thousands of people who have shot at other people, but very, very few can combine all the qualities it takes to become a first-rate instructor.

(As an aside, some of the instructors I've trained under I know have been in gun-fights, but that's not part of their resume nor do they talk about specifics. That's part of their personal histories; not part of their credentials. So if someone evaluates a trainer primarily on whether or not he or she has been in a shoot-out, most first-rate instructors may be dismissed only because they won't advertise their on-duty use of firearms.)