M1 Garand and M1A Commercial Ammo Question

[RiverRat]

Sorry. Dumb question time. Ammo is ammo, correct?

I have some recent build (still NIB)......within the last 5 years, Springfields, an M1 Garand and an M1A SS loaded, and am curious about ammo. I have never shot either rifle, obviously (if NIB). I wanted some REAL battle rifles. You know...I could drag behind the truck till I get there and the still work .

I suspect either M1 would be a better, more reliable choice of "go to/bug out/only taking one" long gun than my AR10 or AR15s (not that they have been unreliable, but too many buddies in 'Nam with too many stories about the very poor timing of their failures and malfunctions).

My question;
I read somewhere that the Garand and M1A were not designed to shoot commercial ammo?? only military ammo?
I do know the M1A specified it was built for 168gr ammo. I did not see any reference to commercial ammo vs mil spec ammo.
I have only found 7.62x51 military in 150gr. available. My doubts about the ammo is one of the reasons I haven't ever fired the rifles. My worry being about the balance of the spring pressures in the semi-autos for the bullet weight/powder load.

I do have bolt actions in both those calibers and have plenty of commercial deer hunting ammo for each in 150gr ....also 180gr and 220gr in 30.06.
I do know that the standard military M2 ball for the Garand in 30.06 is 150gr also, but have heard the powders are different in commercial causing much high chamber pressures and that the Garands would break.

Any of you old timers or riflemen know of or have shot regular .308 in the M1A or regular 30.06 in their Garand? Any Problems?

[Tireshred]

I have a 1943 Garand and have shot many a commercial 150gr round thru it with no problems, the manual states not use anything over 180gr since it "may" have too much pressure for the gas system. I've also read in other publications the reason for the military only recommendation is the risk of a slam fire with commercial ammo, but I've never heard of or seen that happen, I think it's just a precaution. I only chamber a round with the barrel downrange just in case though.

[Mike1951]

In the case of 7.62x51, several manufacturers offer NATO spec loads.

Winchester's product number is Q3130, but it may be seasonal runs.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?p ... ber=366288" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[MechAg94]

I have an M1A and I have shot commercial ammo in it. I have mostly shot surplus and FMJ though as that was normally cheaper and most of my shooting is at the range. I have shot some hunting ammo, just not much as it costs more. If you are reloading, I'm sure you could tailor a load for heavier bullets with reasonable pressures.

I am more careful with my Garand. I have plenty of ammo from the CMP that is surplus Mil-spec so it isn't an issue for me.

[RiverRat]

I had forgotten about military primers being stouter and more forgiving and the bump fire with commercial ammo with softer primers. With all of the ammo hording, I haven't seen an reasonable CMP-type 30.06 lately. Will wait till it calms down some more.
The NATO .308 is pretty easy to find still. Thanks all.

[MoJo]

The M1 should only be shot with ammo of 180 gr and lower loaded with medium burning powders. The reason for this is to prevent bending the operating rod and causing malfunctions.

One of the main malfunctions caused by a bent operating rod is premature ejection of the clip, usually on the 7th round.

The M1A and M14 won't stabilize bullets heavier than 190 grains (1:12 twist instead of the 1:10 of the .30-06.) I'm not aware of any problems with powder burn rates in the M1A except you can't get enough slow burning powder in the .308 case to get good velocities.

The ammo makers are aware of the problems associated with the Garand and as such make target ammo that will work with the system. If reloading for either of these rifles I would use IMR 4895 powder as that is the powder that the Garand's gas system was designed for and the M1A works best with. Military 7.62 NATO ammo is a 147gr bullet with ball powder.

edit: I have shot countless reloads in both platforms using standard primers without any problems with slam fire. I still keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction when loading the rifle.

[RiverRat]

Excellent information on the operating tube and medium powder. I bought some 4895 in early 2008 with just that purpose in mind, but haven't shot any, so don't have brass, and haven't tried to reload, yet. I bought the 4895 because the books showed loads accross the board for all of the rifle calibers that I owned .223 - 30 cal. Didn't really expect a shortage of the CMP milsurp 30.06. At near a buck a round for commercial Remington ammo, my interest level is pretty low in doing much shooting of any kind with big guns till the prices settle out. I'd hate to break open the sealed tins that I do have.

Not saying I am enjoying paying for shooting the .45ACP with the prices so high and the limited availability of cheap WWB, either. At least I have some primers, bullets, and powder put back for the pistols in case I have to go that way. Just hate to use anything till the air clears on availability of resupply.

As for the deer gun furnishing me with brass, I think I shot 2 rounds last year. The scope is still on the money.

Surprised at the M1a limitation (twist rate) on bullet weight as I was lead to believe it was being used as a long distance rifle in the current conflict when there is no Barrett around. I know the little AR's are being used to 600 yards with the M855 62gr green tip. Figured the .308 would be good for 800 at least with a mansized drop or so. I had the numbers and don't remember, ya know.

Thanks again.

[The Annoyed Man]

Surprised at the M1a limitation (twist rate) on bullet weight as I was lead to believe it was being used as a long distance rifle in the current conflict when there is no Barrett around. I know the little AR's are being used to 600 yards with the M855 62gr green tip. Figured the .308 would be good for 800 at least with a mansized drop or so. I had the numbers and don't remember, ya know.

Thanks again.

I don't claim to be any kind of expert on either rifle, but I think I recall that the max effective range for the M14 was supposed to be 800 meters. I've shot a Remington 700 Tactical in .308 out to just under 800 yards, and that was difficult shooting, even with a heavy barreled bolt rifle, for a shooter like me lacking sniper training — and that was done with a good Leupold tactical scope mounted. So if you can shoot to 800 meters through iron sights on an M14/M1A, you're doing darn good. BTW, my old roommate carried an M14 in Vietnam with the Marine Corps in '67 or '68, thereabouts, and he said it was not immune from jamming either, the wood would swell when it got wet, and it was practically uncontrollable when the select fire switch was set to "rock and roll." Why? Partly because the axis of the bore is higher than the axis of the butt stock; so the recoil impulse causes the rifle to rotate upward more forcefully that if the bore axis is in direct line with the buttstock — as on an AR platform. (This was part of Eugene Stoner's rationale for designing the AR15/M16 platform the way he did.) The M1A is a beautiful and desirable rifle. I've wanted one for 40 years, but somehow the money always winds up going to something else. There is one disadvantage to it though as a bugout rifle, and that is the wood stock. Beautiful, yes. Also heavy, easily damaged and harder to replace if broken, and not impervious to weather.

That said, whatever reliability questions you may have about the AR platform in general have largely been put to rest. The reliability issues in Vietnam have been addressed since then, and successfully so. The platform is functioning under different but equally difficult conditions today in Iraq and Afghanistan (less rain, more wind and sand). The primary complaint has been not so much against the platform, but against the appropriateness of the 5.56 NATO cartridge in urban combat where the 7.62 may be the better choice; but an AR10 can address that.

Lastly, and it is something you should be careful of...

You'll remember that 5.56 NATO chambers can safely fire .223 Remington, but not the other way around? Well, if I remember correctly the same is true, but in reverse, in the .30 caliber situation. Chambers marked in .308 Winchester may safely fire 7.62 NATO ammunition, but chambers marked in 7.62 NATO may not safely fire .308 Winchester. So, know what the actual chambering is, and be careful with your ammo choices.

[MoJo]

.
Surprised at the M1a limitation (twist rate) on bullet weight as I was lead to believe it was being used as a long distance rifle in the current conflict when there is no Barrett around. I know the little AR's are being used to 600 yards with the M855 62gr green tip. Figured the .308 would be good for 800 at least with a mansized drop or so. I had the numbers and don't remember, ya know.

Thanks again.

The standard sniper round for the M14 is the 172gr Match ammo loaded by Lake City Arsenal. The sniper version has a scope and 1,000 yards isn't that hard for a trained shooter. Everyone thinks a sniper shoots at long ranges - - - most Military snipers take their shots inside 600 yards and police snipers inside 100 yards. It's the ability to precisely place their shots that make them a sniper.

[RiverRat]

Annoyed---
I think the bug out thing is a mute point for me. I'm too old to run, too fat to hide, too slow to duck, and too stubborn to leave.

800 yards (or 1000)...I'd like to try, but it's silly..I can't see that far, and not sure I want to afford the proper optics that could. The longest shot I've ever taken was ~300 yards, pronghorn hunting in West Texas when I was a kid. Not sure I could hit a 4x8 sheet of plyboard at that distance these days.

I guess I was thinking more in terms of reliability, power, capacity, and lack of upkeep in a battle rifle, I'd probably be better off with a lever gun or a bolt, even one of the old Mosins. I've always had a soft place for the 30.06, and hadn't fully considered the limitations of the gas operated guns. Specifically, the ammo. I had envisioned going to the 7-11 in Mullins, TX and getting any ole 30.06 ammo to use in Garand or any ole .308 to use in the M1a. So much for a one rifle solution. You've got me thinking neither of these rifles are less of a compromise than any other .30 cal one I have in the safe.

I have an AR-10 with 6-20 scope on it (I have to assume that it's ammo specific also), it's a DPMS, which I've read (again)...doesn't hold the highest of quality ratings. I have been shooting 150gr misc, milsurp battle pack ammo in it. Less than 3 mags, again, due to the cost. My confidence level is near zero with this rifle. It's heavy, not that the M1's aren't.

I do have a couple of Colt 6920's, which are supposed to be high rated in terms "the right stuff" in the AR-15 world, but don't consider them enough gun to cleanly take down a deer or big pig. I haven't used the AR's much, and haven't developed very much trust in the platform. It's not a target rifle, but it does seem pretty accurate, it's not a hunting rifle, maybe for prairie dogs, it's not a plinking rifle, ammo is too expensive. I only bought some because of a recent election. Honestly, If I were going to use a .22, why not a 10/22 and 5k of ammo in the same weight for carry and a lot less money. And then there are shotguns, yet I digress.

I guess I need to table the one battle rifle solution for another thread and ponder on it some more. Maybe a better quality AR-10 is an answer. I'm still saddled with the same ammo limitation issues that I'm facing with the Garand and the M1A. Cheers

[MechAg94]

I had forgotten about military primers being stouter and more forgiving and the bump fire with commercial ammo with softer primers. With all of the ammo hording, I haven't seen an reasonable CMP-type 30.06 lately. Will wait till it calms down some more.
The NATO .308 is pretty easy to find still. Thanks all.

I ordered some 30.06 from the CMP and got it in a month or two (I think). IMO, that is still the best source.

[RiverRat]

I never did sign up for CMP. Guess I need to. Thanks

[xpur3l0g1cx]

For the M1 garand do not use commercial ammo due to faster burning powders. If you use commercial ammo you need to get the adjustable gas plug that vents off the excess gas. I have shot a few 150 commercial rounds and didnt like how hard it slammed the bolt back. Stick with surplus or get the plug.

[RiverRat]

I will leave the Garand stock, as from the factory. Just won't use commercial ammo and keep a lookout for some more Greek stuff in the clips.

I called DPMS yesterday they said any US made commerical ammo in the LR308, so that might be a the better way to go. The rifle was set up for 168gr, but will shoot anything. That was good news. I'll call Springfield next week and ask, too. I have a pistol that's acting up that I need to get back to them to look at.