Amtrak Objects to Checked Firearms on Trains

[Kythas]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/10 ... ns-trains/

Amtrak is raising serious objections to a proposal that would allow passengers to stow unloaded guns in their checked baggage, saying the train operator cannot screen passengers' bags the same way airlines do.

The Senate passed a measure last month that would allow passengers to declare and check a weapon on the trains, something airline passengers can do now, provided the weapon is unloaded and in a hard and locked case.

But Amtrak and some House members are against the idea. The House did not include the provision in their version of the bill approved by the Senate.

"That could jeopardize the operations of Amtrak because ... we don't have the monies to invest in the protocol necessary to guarantee that these weapons won't be used against the traveling public," said Rep. Bennie Thompson, D-Miss.

Amtrak Police Chief John O'Connor said it's possible the system's random bag inspections could catch someone with an illegal weapon, but that Amtrak does not even have baggage cars on every train.

He said he does not want any weapons, checked or unchecked, on his trains.

But supporters see the measure as way to keep Second Amendment rights from being restricted.

Sen. Roger Wicker, R-Miss., said it's inappropriate for Amtrak to draw the line at this proposal since the system doesn't do much screening of passengers anyway.

"There is no screening now as there is at airports," he said. "Someone wishing to do ill could bring a firearm on a train right now."

He said that anyone "up to no good" would probably not store their firearm in checked baggage in the first place.

[dicion]

Are their Trains posted 30.06? If not, then we can already carry on them in Texas, and depending on neighboring states laws and reciprocity, there as well.

Heck, you could TOTALLY claim the 'Traveling' exemption to 46.02 and open carry if you really wanted to make them angry :P
I mean, It's pretty much a given that if you're on a train, you're traveling, right?

[Kythas]

Are their Trains posted 30.06? If not, then we can already carry on them in Texas, and depending on neighboring states as well.

Heck, you could TOTALLY claim the 'Traveling' exemption to 46.02 and open carry if you really wanted to make them angry :P
I mean, It's pretty much a given that if you're on a train, you're traveling, right?

I don't believe so. Amtrak is a Federal...something...and Federal regulations prohibiting weapons would trump state or local laws, much like the Post Office. Technically, they're a private corporation, but they're Federally funded and have their own police agency, all of whom are Federal law enforcement agents, the same as Postal Inspectors.

Per the Amtrak website:

1. It Is Amtrak's Policy That Only Qualified Active Law Enforcement Officers Employed By A Local, State, Federal Or Railroad Law Enforcement Agency On Official Business May Be Permitted To Carry Handguns Or Small Weapons (not Exposed Or Needlessly Displayed) Aboard Amtrak Trains. Each Situation Requires Prior Approval By Amtrak Police.

2. A "qualified Active Law Enforcement Officer" Is Defined As An Employee Of A Government Agency Or Railroad Who:

Is Authorized By Law To Engage In Or Supervise The Prevention, Detection, Investigation, Prosecution Or The Incarceration Of Any Person For Any Violation Of Law,

Has Statutory Powers Of Arrest,

Is Authorized By The Agency To Carry A Firearm,

Is Not The Subject Of Any Disciplinary Action By The Agency,

Meets The Standards, If Any, Established By The Agency Which Require The Employee To Regularly Qualify In The Use Of A Firearm,

Is Not Under The Influence Of Alcohol Or Other Intoxicating Or Hallucinatory Drug Or Substance, And

Is Not Prohibited By Federal Law From Possessing A Firearm.

3. Under No Circumstances Is A Non-law Enforcement Individual Permitted To Carry A Firearm Aboard Amtrak Trains.

4. Firearms, Ammunition And/or Other Weapons, Whether Or Not Packaged, Are Prohibited In Carry-on Baggage Or On The Person At All Times, Even If The Person Has A Permit To Carry. There Are No Exceptions, Other Than As Stated In Sections 1 And 2

5. Firearms, Ammunition And Other Weapons Are Never Permitted In Checked Baggage Or In Amtrak Express.

[dicion]

Are their Trains posted 30.06? If not, then we can already carry on them in Texas, and depending on neighboring states as well.

Heck, you could TOTALLY claim the 'Traveling' exemption to 46.02 and open carry if you really wanted to make them angry :P
I mean, It's pretty much a given that if you're on a train, you're traveling, right?

I don't believe so. Amtrak is a Federal...something...and Federal regulations prohibiting weapons would trump state or local laws, much like the Post Office. Technically, they're a private corporation, but they're Federally funded and have their own police agency, all of whom are Federal law enforcement agents, the same as Postal Inspectors.

Per the Amtrak website:

1. It Is Amtrak's Policy That Only Qualified Active Law Enforcement Officers Employed By A Local, State, Federal Or Railroad Law Enforcement Agency On Official Business May Be Permitted To Carry Handguns Or Small Weapons (not Exposed Or Needlessly Displayed) Aboard Amtrak Trains. Each Situation Requires Prior Approval By Amtrak Police.

2. A "qualified Active Law Enforcement Officer" Is Defined As An Employee Of A Government Agency Or Railroad Who:

Is Authorized By Law To Engage In Or Supervise The Prevention, Detection, Investigation, Prosecution Or The Incarceration Of Any Person For Any Violation Of Law,

Has Statutory Powers Of Arrest,

Is Authorized By The Agency To Carry A Firearm,

Is Not The Subject Of Any Disciplinary Action By The Agency,

Meets The Standards, If Any, Established By The Agency Which Require The Employee To Regularly Qualify In The Use Of A Firearm,

Is Not Under The Influence Of Alcohol Or Other Intoxicating Or Hallucinatory Drug Or Substance, And

Is Not Prohibited By Federal Law From Possessing A Firearm.

3. Under No Circumstances Is A Non-law Enforcement Individual Permitted To Carry A Firearm Aboard Amtrak Trains.

4. Firearms, Ammunition And/or Other Weapons, Whether Or Not Packaged, Are Prohibited In Carry-on Baggage Or On The Person At All Times, Even If The Person Has A Permit To Carry. There Are No Exceptions, Other Than As Stated In Sections 1 And 2

5. Firearms, Ammunition And Other Weapons Are Never Permitted In Checked Baggage Or In Amtrak Express.

Just because they say it on their website doesn't make it true. How is this different from carrying on say, a Greyhound bus? Are there any links to relevant statutes or federal laws?
By saying it's their 'policy' means they'll probably kick you off if they find out. Doesn't mean it's illegal.

And the whole post office comparison is a bad comparison, because, by law, It is my opinion after reading all the relevant statutes and federal laws that Carrying is legal at the post office

[C-dub]

I've never ridden on Amtrak and probably never will, so I don't know anything about their procedures. Even though they are subsidized by the Government, it sounds like they are still considered a private company. I also don't see anything in the law that says we cannot carry on a train like it does for planes. So, wouldn't Amtrak have to post 30.06 signs in Texas and whatever is required in other states depending on their laws? Of course, some states we wouldn't be allowed to carry at all and stow it however would be required for travelling in that state.

I'm just wondering.

[C-dub]

You guys are just too quick.

[C-dub]

I wonder if someone were to ask Amtrak if they could tell us what law we would be violating if we carried concealed onto one of their trains?

Do passengers go through metal detectors before boarding or going into a secure area?

[dicion]

I wonder if someone were to ask Amtrak if they could tell us what law we would be violating if we carried concealed onto one of their trains?

Do passengers go through metal detectors before boarding or going into a secure area?

Negative, and the 'secure area' part is only mentioned in 2 places in the law. Airports and Police Stations. Nothing about Train Stations, so even if they did...

[SA-TX]

And the whole post office comparison is a bad comparison, because, by law, It is my opinion after reading all the relevant statutes and federal laws that Carrying is legal at the post office

Thatisn't the opinion of the 5th US Circuit Court of Appeals which is binding for Texas (see my recent post in the Federal forum. I'd paste a reference to it if I knew how :)) and just decided this case. They just convicted someone who had a gun, not in the post office itself, but in his car. Some are trying to make the distinction between an employee and a customer but the regs don't seem to differentiate. The bottom line seems to be that you are in violation if it is anywere on PO property. The $50 fine isn't that much to fear but the possible 1 year in jail?!

SA-TX

[dicion]

And the whole post office comparison is a bad comparison, because, by law, It is my opinion after reading all the relevant statutes and federal laws that Carrying is legal at the post office

Thatisn't the opinion of the 5th US Circuit Court of Appeals which is binding for Texas (see my recent post in the Federal forum. I'd paste a reference to it if I knew how :)) and just decided this case. They just convicted someone who had a gun, not in the post office itself, but in his car. Some are trying to make the distinction between an employee and a customer but the regs don't seem to differentiate. The bottom line seems to be that you are in violation if it is anywere on PO property. The $50 fine isn't that much to fear but the possible 1 year in jail?!

SA-TX

Nowhere in there was a CHL Mentioned. 30.06(e) applies only to CHLs. This is the statute that directly conflicts with the CFR, in which the CFR itself states that it shall yield.

Plus, he played it wrong. His appeal was based on unconstitutionality, not on the CFR conflicting with local law, to which is specifically states that it yields. He should have claimed that it conflicts with the MPA, and therefore must yield to it. Sounds like his lawyer didn't know the finer points of Texas Gun law and Federal CFR's. At least that is my opinion.

[Kythas]

True, I don't know if this is just Amtrak "policy", a law enacted by statute, or just some sort of Federal regulation. If it's just policy, I guess they can only kick you off the train, but a bureaucratic regulation by a federal agency has as much standing as a statute passed by Congress, which is why the EPA looks like it's going to enact cap & tax via regulations whether or not Congress passes it as statutory law, which is another topic entirely.

It does make one wonder, though, why it takes an act of Congress to allow the carry of firearms on Amtrak trains in checked baggage.

[The Annoyed Man]

True, I don't know if this is just Amtrak "policy", a law enacted by statute, or just some sort of Federal regulation. If it's just policy, I guess they can only kick you off the train, but a bureaucratic regulation by a federal agency has as much standing as a statute passed by Congress, which is why the EPA looks like it's going to enact cap & tax via regulations whether or not Congress passes it as statutory law, which is another topic entirely.

It does make one wonder, though, why it takes an act of Congress to allow the carry of firearms on Amtrak trains in checked baggage.

What if you boarded the train in Texas, and they kick you off the train in Chicago, where those guns locked in your baggage are illegal?

[dicion]

True, I don't know if this is just Amtrak "policy", a law enacted by statute, or just some sort of Federal regulation. If it's just policy, I guess they can only kick you off the train, but a bureaucratic regulation by a federal agency has as much standing as a statute passed by Congress, which is why the EPA looks like it's going to enact cap & tax via regulations whether or not Congress passes it as statutory law, which is another topic entirely.

It does make one wonder, though, why it takes an act of Congress to allow the carry of firearms on Amtrak trains in checked baggage.

What if you boarded the train in Texas, and they kick you off the train in Chicago, where those guns locked in your baggage are illegal?

It Should be covered under the Federal Interstate Traveling regulations, as long as it is legal for you to possess them at your origin, and at your final destination.

A Case based on exactly this is going to the supreme court, for some guy who drove from NJ, where he legally owned the firearm, to NY Airport, where he was going to check them, and fly to another legally possessing place.

The local cops busted him on illegal possession, even though the TSA was telling them that it was legal. Let me see if I can find the case information.

[Oldgringo]

Who rides Amtrak? If they don't want me, I don't want them.

[jlangton]

Who rides Amtrak? If they don't want me, I don't want them.

I agree-that taxpayer leech of a company should have failed long ago.
JL