Why we have the Fourth Amendment [soapbox]

[seamusTX]

This question came up in another thread, which is already pretty long, so I want to start a new one.

Some people say, "I have done nothing wrong. I have nothing to hide. I don't care if government officials search my car, listen to my phone calls, read my e-mail, etc."

The Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution:

• The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

In plain English, government officials must keep their hands off you and out of your stuff unless they have evidence that you have committed a crime.

This is your right, along with the rights to worship, speak freely, assemble, keep and bear arms, trial by jury, habeus corpus, and due process, guaranteed by the Constitution.

The discussion could end at this point.

• Are you sure you have done nothing illegal? We are subject to innumerable federal, state, and local laws. No one knows them all.

• Do you have an old bag of Dursban in your garage? Illegal. Did a family member leave prescription drugs in your glove compartment? It's illegal for you to "possess" them. God forbid your good-for-nothing brother-in-law dropped a joint in your car.

• That is why the police can not go on "fishing expeditions."

• During the Katrina catastrophe in New Orleans, the police entered the homes of law-abiding citizens who had done nothing illegal and confiscated firearms. In one case, they manhandled and injured an elderly woman who was doing nothing illegal -- and took her pistol. Hundreds of people still have not recovered their weapons.

• Every year innocent people are killed or humiliated in searches that go bad, usually based on incorrect addresses or mistaken identity.

• No one knows how often police perform illegal searches and plant evidence. Most defendants are too poor to hire an attorney, and end up with a plea bargain. However, police officers are convicted for obstruction of justice every year.

• The vast majority of police officers are decent and hard-working, but the bad apples have to be kept in check.

• Finally, you may be comfortable with the government that we have today, but what about the government that we have next year, or ten years from now? What could become politically incorrect?

• Rights that we cede are not easily recovered.

For further reading, please see http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/cons ... endment04/.

- Jim

[KBCraig]

Excellent post.

My personal response to "You don't have anything to hide, do you?" is, "No, and that's why you don't have a reason to search me."

I've only had a half dozen "official" interactions with police in my lifetime. I've never been asked for permission to search my vehicle. If I am ever asked, I'll politely decline. No need to get angry about it: just smile and say no.

Kevin

[seamusTX]

Thanks.

I've been searched twice, in my late teens or early twenties, in Chicago. No permission asked. Nothing came of either search.

- Jim

[nitrogen]

+∞

I posted 2 of my worst horror stories in the other huge thread. As a kid, I learned an important lesson: It really does matter what you look like. If you look a certain way, people treat you a certain way.

You might disagree with some of their stances, but thats why I'm a member of the ACLU.
They fight to make sure everyone's rights are protected, even people we all hate.

Besides, every time they ask for me for money, I send them a dollar, with a note stating that they should support EVERY amendment of the bill of rights, not just the most popular. I remind them that the NRA and JPFO gets twice what they get. I hope one day they get the message.

Sometimes the best way to change a group is from the inside. I hope maybe one day the ACLU changes.

[anygunanywhere]

+∞


They fight to make sure everyone's rights are protected, even people we all hate.

Nitrogen, since you are a member, please cite any instances where the ACLU has defended the Second Amendment.

They are great at defending child molesters, illegals, celebrities, et al.

Just wondering.

Anygun

[nitrogen]

+∞


They fight to make sure everyone's rights are protected, even people we all hate.

Nitrogen, since you are a member, please cite any instances where the ACLU has defended the Second Amendment.

They are great at defending child molesters, illegals, celebrities, et al.

Just wondering.

Anygun

They don't, and it's a major beef I have with them.
Their stance on the 2nd amendment is well known. No advocacy org is perfect; the NRA annoys me at times, when they decide to tell me they don't like Al Gore's environmental movie, for instance. Al Gore, and the fight over the environment is a charged one, and it's one I believe the NRA needs to keep its mouth shut about. I could go into a whole post about why I hate the fact that the NRA feels it needs to have positions on issues that have nothing to do with gun ownership, but I digress. I agree with the NRA's core mission; so I am a member.

I agree with the ACLU's core mission: Protecting rights. Child molestors and celebrities have rights, just like you and I do. While they might be the scum of the earth; they have rights. If the government can infringe on someone elses rights, then they can infringe on yours, too.

I'm silly that way. I believe that the bill of rights applies to everyone, wether I like them or not. I feel that someone accused of an emotionally charged crime of molesting a child has the same rights in court that everyone else does, and yes, i'll fight to make sure that they have those rights. And you should, too.

If Britney Spears went into a gunstore and bought a revolver, and was later harassed by the ATF, had her gun taken w/o a warrant, and was told to show up to an ATF location to prove she's not a prohibited posessor, you'd be pretty mad, i'd hope. Sure, I don't like her one lick, but she's got the same rights to self defense that the rest of us do, even though she's an annoying and stupid celebrity.

"A society is ultimately judged by how it treats its weakest and most vulnerable members." - Anonymous

[cyphur]

I think when you take it upon yourself to commit acts such as murder, rape, aggrivated assualt, any offense against a child, et cetera - you voluntarily throw all of your rights in the trash.

Just because this country wrote a document and thinks its "progressed" past its own history, doesn't mean we should protect the scum of the earth. Thats why they're called the scum of the earth.

But I also think citizenship should be earned, so my 2 cents may be a bit skewed.....

[seamusTX]

Well said, Nitrogen.

It is always easiest for governments to violate the rights of the most isolated minorities and the most despised individuals; but once they get a taste of that power, no one is safe. And the power that you are willing to grant to the best government will someday be used by the worst.

I wish the ACLU would stay out of some fights, but they are absolutists.

BTW, I don't know who said the exact words in your quotation, but they come from the philosophy of William James. It is based in Matthew 25 of the Christian Bible, which calls for kindness to prisoners, among other things.

- Jim

[TxFire]

I think when you take it upon yourself to commit acts such as murder, rape, aggrivated assualt, any offense against a child, et cetera - you voluntarily throw all of your rights in the trash.

Who gets to decide what the et cetera in your post entails? Where does the list end, or does it? Do they have to be convicted or simply accused? I believe those commiting crimes against persons such as you listed should be punished according to the law, but I do not feel they throw "ALL" of their rights in the trash.

[nitrogen]

I think when you take it upon yourself to commit acts such as murder, rape, aggrivated assualt, any offense against a child, et cetera - you voluntarily throw all of your rights in the trash.

The government must prove that someone committed these heinous acts.
They are very emotionally charged crimes.

Not to sound harsh, but, the way our criminal system works, just because you feel that way doesn't make it so.
Someone writing for the NYTimes feels that the 2nd amendment isn't necessary. His arguments, (which I won't even argue if they hold water or not) arent any more right than yours.

Many years ago, during a traffic stop, I had my identity mistaken for that of a wanted child molestor (i've posted about it before.)
I shared his name, and he lived on a street with the same name as mine (in a different city) He was also much older than I was.

When the police stopped me, they got a "hit" off of their computer search system. I'm glad I had all my rights. Nobody likes child molestors, and don't get me wrong, I do not like them one iota. I'm just glad I had my rights. A case of mistaken identity could have easily had me thrown in jail, sitting to rot, all while getting beatings I would have deserved, had I been the person they thought I was.

Fourtunately for me, the police was extremely professional about the whole thing. They handcuffed me and put me in the back of their police car while they figured things out. A few mins later, they let me go on my way.

That's only one of many examples of why we have the rights we do.

EDIT: SemusTX brings up another wonderful point. A wonderful man, a Jewish carpenter and rabbi many years ago hung out with a lot of people like the ACLU tries to help, and tried to improve their lives by showing them that they mattered, if not to society, at least to God. If that man can see the good in society's dregs, I can surely try to at least see that they get a fair shake. (And i'm not even one of his followers! )

[cyphur]

That was more of a rant than a feasible suggestion. When sitting on such a slippery slope such as individual rights its best to err on the side of caution and afford EVERYONE the rights as opposed to risking the rights of just and innocent people.

I just think when you decide to infringe/take someone else's rights, that you are basically saying "I don't deserve my own", at least in the case of murder, rape, assault, molestation, aggravated invasion of privacy, to name some of the most prevalent. Again, more of a pipe dream than a suggestion.

[nitrogen]

I just think when you decide to infringe/take someone else's rights, that you are basically saying "I don't deserve my own" [...]

This sums up my position on the matter better than I did. Very well worded.

[txinvestigator]

+∞



You might disagree with some of their stances, but thats why I'm a member of the ACLU.
.

The ACLU is anti-America. They have an agenda, but it has nothing to do with protecting theright of all Americans.

I am dissapointed.

[anygunanywhere]

Child molestors and celebrities have rights, just like you and I do.

The ACLU has defended certain organizations, specifically NAMBLA, the association that advocates legalizing "consensual" relations between men and children. They have publicly defended the NAMBLA website and the goals of the organization. Such scum do not deserve to live. Period.

"A society is ultimately judged by how it treats its weakest and most vulnerable members." - Anonymous

Your quote proves my point. The ACLU defends both child molesters and their desire to have their actions legalized. I believe the NRA or any other valid organization may voice opinions on topics of general interest to society and the common good. Organizations like the ACLU that justify their existence by advocating aberrant, disgusting, illegal behavior have no right to exist and their opinions and goals have no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Anygun

[seamusTX]

What do you make of Bob Barr's work with the ACLU?
http://bobbarr.org/default_print.asp?pt ... scr&RI=707
http://www.bobbarr.org/default.asp?pt=newsdescr&RI=405
http://www.bobbarr.org/default.asp?pt=newsdescr&RI=560

- Jim