Can I just ask some What if Questions?

[Purplehood]

Just a note to say that, lately, we've seen a number of posts talking about fear of one's life as a justification for the use of deadly force.

I'm not a lawyer (one may come around shortly), but I've had it explained to me multiple times that one's subjective, emotional state is not a defense to prosecution. In fact, in telling first-responders what happened, one of the last things you want to do is make it seem your actions were based on emotion, not rational thought.

If you look through all the applicable sections of the Penal Code, you will not find the word "afraid" anywhere, and the only use of the word "fear" appears in PC §42.01. (Disorderly Conduct) in (a)(e) which reads "It is a defense to prosecution for an offense under Subsection (a)(7) or (9) that the person who discharged the firearm had a reasonable fear of bodily injury to the person or to another by a dangerous wild animal as defined by Section 822.101, Health and Safety Code."

I don't mean to derail the topic, but this has to be the third or fourth one I've read since the beginning of the year that has posts talking about "fear of one's life" as a standard for the use of deadly force. I personally think it's important for all of us to be well-versed in PC §9, and it says nothing at all about your emotional state. PC §9 is pretty clear, and it all centers around what "the actor reasonably believes...was immediately necessary."

Until Charles, a DA, or a criminal attorney comes along to set me straight, I think we all need to wipe the words "fear" and "afraid" from our vocabularies. Not only does that sound like a good motivational speaker line but if you ever, God forbid, need to use your gun, it had better not be because you were merely afraid. It had better be because you believed that it was absolutely necessary for you to do so.

Just my humble opinion. I know it may seem like nitpicking, but we've had a lot of new members sign-up the past few months, and I don't want any of them to get the wrong idea about the "in fear of my life" thing.

This is a very valid point. Many of the Brady-bunch public figures like to stress the "emotional" state that a gun-toting citizen can get wrapped up in and the sense of "power" that simply carrying a gun supposedly creates.

"It was my belief that I was in immediate danger of losing my life" sounds a lot more convincing and applicable to an immediate and specific situation.
"I was afraid that I would be shot" simply sounds like someone running around in a continuous emotional state of fear, like a fuse waiting for a match to set it off.

[C-dub]

All right, "fear" might not have been the best word, but our state of mind at the time of an incident can be crucial. Substitute "believe" for "fear." I'm not suggesting a way to justify an illegal action after the fact, but rather raise a question about a possible reason why one would shoot even if the person were running away. Isn't our belief of eminent harm a key part of our self defense? Now, think about this. I've just been robbed and the BG threatens that if I call the police he will come back for me, my wife, and my kids since he has my DL.

BTW, my intention is not to argue, but to discuss the reality of a persons possible state of mind and the results of their actions while in that situation. Haven't people been acquitted for killing someone that had been abusive, even though that person was sleeping at the time and posed no eminent threat?

[karder]

Shooting a guy who is retreating could be very hard to defend. The prosecutor will downplay the fact that the perp just robbed you and paint you as an angry vigilante. While I would certainly draw my weapon to defend against further action, I would not advise shooting unless the threat escalated. Just an opinion from an uneducated layman.

[Purplehood]

If they don't pose a threat, let them go.

I had an incident when I was younger and sharing a house in Cape Town with 4 (very liberal) students who loathed the fact that I had firearms - then came the night that one of them, the most anti- girl woke me up in a state, saying someone was breaking into her car. I got out my CZ75 and went flying out the door and scared the heck out of the guy, who then took off down the street with her car-radio in his mitts.

"Shoot him! Shoot him!" she was shrieking.

"I can't!" I yelled back.

"He's got my radio - shoot him!" she wailed.

So she and I had a pretty heated ... discussion, let's say... about the value of someone's life vs a few hundred bucks' worth of stuff.

Dang antis.

Did her philosophy regarding guns change any after that incident?

[mctowalot]

Re: Posts above:
My new New Years resolution is to reserve my attempts at humor for posts regarding CHL sashes and the like.

[C-dub]

If they don't pose a threat, let them go.

I had an incident when I was younger and sharing a house in Cape Town with 4 (very liberal) students who loathed the fact that I had firearms - then came the night that one of them, the most anti- girl woke me up in a state, saying someone was breaking into her car. I got out my CZ75 and went flying out the door and scared the heck out of the guy, who then took off down the street with her car-radio in his mitts.

"Shoot him! Shoot him!" she was shrieking.

"I can't!" I yelled back.

"He's got my radio - shoot him!" she wailed.

So she and I had a pretty heated ... discussion, let's say... about the value of someone's life vs a few hundred bucks' worth of stuff.

Dang antis.

That is commendable, Andy, and shows a clear head and an honorable man. I wouldn't shoot anyone over a radio or a few simple things either. Unfortunately, there are many who would and I think the law, today (9.42), says that if you believe there is no reasonable expectation to recover the stolen property that deadly force may be used. You would not have been justified to recover her property, but unless I'm wrong you would be justified today to recover your property.

[gemini]

57 coastie ".......each one of which could be read as suggesting ways to, after the fact, justify a clearly unjustified homicide".

karder ".......Shooting a guy who is retreating could be very hard to defend".

I'm not trying to take anyones post out of context but........ If a BG threatens your life, produces a gun, knife, other deadly weapon etc. Where does it say you must not shoot the BG in the back, in the side, when he's retreating, in the head, in the foot, or any other particular body part? What's to keep him from immediately changing his mind (as he runs off), from turning, and putting a few rounds into you? He just committed agg robbery, carjack, rape etc to you, and will kill you if you don't submit.
As far as I know, shot placement is not written into the law of deadly force self defense.

Another scenario: Someone is kicking in your front door in a home invasion. OK. You get your gun. You secure your family, if time allows. You take a defensive position, providing you with available cover. There are multiple BG's. The BG's crash the door, busting
in, you shoot BG #1 in the front, BG #2 dives on the floor, BG #3 turns to run. Do you shoot BG #2? Do you shoot BG #3?
I'm not John Wayne, but I can assure you. If the above scenario happens at my house, I will shoot all 3 BG's if I get the chance and I won't even think about if I am shooting them in a politically correct part of their BG carcasses. Front, back, sideways.... whatever.

[bdickens]

Um. Why not shoot the guy before handing over your wallet?

[gemini]

Um. Why not shoot the guy before handing over your wallet?

Sounds good. If you can draw and fire faster than the BG can pull the trigger on the gun pointed directly at your chest.
I shoot alot, I also practice IWB holster draws. I'm not THAT fast. Good to know others are; gives me something to work toward.

[Tamie]

He's still a threat unless he dropped his gun before running.

[C-dub]

Hello and welcome Tamie. Sorry I missed your first post.

[seamusTX]

Taking a life is not funny.

Amen, amigo; and I also agree completely with Skippr.

This issue was discussed to death years ago when txinvestigator and Frankie_the_Yankee were still participating.

- Jim

[flb_78]

I'd wouldn't just hand over my wallet if I were in this situation, I'd toss it off the side and away from me and then try and use the distraction to my advantage.