Invalid 51% sign?

[FrankRinTX]

Hi all,

I'm 5 months new to Texas and have been reading the forum for at least a year. I hold a CHL in Arizona where I lived most of my adult life and where there is no statutory definition for a "no guns" sign, and I also had a CHL in California where "no guns" signs are invalid and unenforceable and a CHL holder can carry almost anywhere. (I left CA after two short years, realizing what a mistake moving there was.) I now have my Texas CHL only a month after submitting my paperwork!

So, knowing how to identify valid 30.06 and 51% signs is all new to me. My question is this:

The other day I was about to walk into a liquor store when I noticed a 51% sign. Now clearly, this store DOES NOT generate more than 51% of it's income from on-site consumption; it only sells liquor for off-site consumption. To further complicate matters, right beside the 51% was the "unlicensed possession of a handgun on these premises is a felony" ... obviously these two signs cannot possibly co-exist because they contradict each other.

So, if I see a 51% sign that is clearly invalid, is it still enforceable? In this particular case I doubt that the store owners are even anti-gun but are probably just confused and decided to hang both signs, not understanding which one really applies.

[shortysboy09]

Texas statutes clearly states that it has to be for on-site consumption. Therefore a liquor store does not fall under that category. So, the liquor store is okay to carry in. I'm guessing the 51% sign is put up per the TABC codes.

The other sign says that UNLICENSED possession of a firearm is a felony. You are in LICENSED possession of a firearm. This sign is also required by TABC I beleive. Therefore you are good to go on that matter as well.

BTW, WELCOME! You already know there is an endless amount of information here so I won't go into that. We look forward to you contributing your opinions and helping us all out!

[A-R]

Hi all,

I'm 5 months new to Texas and have been reading the forum for at least a year. I hold a CHL in Arizona where I lived most of my adult life and where there is no statutory definition for a "no guns" sign, and I also had a CHL in California where "no guns" signs are invalid and unenforceable and a CHL holder can carry almost anywhere. (I left CA after two short years, realizing what a mistake moving there was.) I now have my Texas CHL only a month after submitting my paperwork!

So, knowing how to identify valid 30.06 and 51% signs is all new to me. My question is this:

The other day I was about to walk into a liquor store when I noticed a 51% sign. Now clearly, this store DOES NOT generate more than 51% of it's income from on-site consumption; it only sells liquor for off-site consumption. To further complicate matters, right beside the 51% was the "unlicensed possession of a handgun on these premises is a felony" ... obviously these two signs cannot possibly co-exist because they contradict each other.

So, if I see a 51% sign that is clearly invalid, is it still enforceable? In this particular case I doubt that the store owners are even anti-gun but are probably just confused and decided to hang both signs, not understanding which one really applies.

Welome to Texas and Texas CHL and this forum

I recommend you report this liquor store to the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission (TABC) and the Department of Public Safety (DPS). They have a legal obligation to post the correct signage as part of their liquor license.

[CWOOD]

Hi all,

I'm 5 months new to Texas and have been reading the forum for at least a year. I hold a CHL in Arizona where I lived most of my adult life and where there is no statutory definition for a "no guns" sign, and I also had a CHL in California where "no guns" signs are invalid and unenforceable and a CHL holder can carry almost anywhere. (I left CA after two short years, realizing what a mistake moving there was.) I now have my Texas CHL only a month after submitting my paperwork!

So, knowing how to identify valid 30.06 and 51% signs is all new to me. My question is this:

The other day I was about to walk into a liquor store when I noticed a 51% sign. Now clearly, this store DOES NOT generate more than 51% of it's income from on-site consumption; it only sells liquor for off-site consumption. To further complicate matters, right beside the 51% was the "unlicensed possession of a handgun on these premises is a felony" ... obviously these two signs cannot possibly co-exist because they contradict each other.

So, if I see a 51% sign that is clearly invalid, is it still enforceable? In this particular case I doubt that the store owners are even anti-gun but are probably just confused and decided to hang both signs, not understanding which one really applies.

Welcome to Texas and to this forum.

Let me try to help with this.

The properly posted 30.06 sign (as well as the other forms of notification provided for in section 30.06) carries the force of law by its mere presence.

The 51% sign is advisory only. By that I mean the any violation of law resulting from a CHLer carrying in a true 51% location (as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission---TABC) occurs regardless of the presence or absence of the sign.

Let me elaborate. If a CHLer carries into a restaurant or liquor store which has improperly posted a 51% sign, no violation has occurred. On the other hand if a CHLer carries into a bar, a true 51% location, the violation occurs regardless of whether a 51% sign was present or not. It is our responsibility to know.

The most recent legislature improved the situation last year by providing for a defense to prosecution if the CHLer carried into the bar and no 51% sign was posted. You still want to be very careful because a defense to prosecution can only be asserted at trial. That means you have probably already been arrested, jailed, had your CHL suspended, had your handgun seized, spent money on a lawyer and been in legal limbo for months.

To definitively determine the status of a location, you can look at their alcoholic beverage license. They are required to have it in public view. It is a certificate about 4"H and 8"W. Look in the center and find the words:

SIGN = BLUE if it is NOT a 51% location, and
SIGN = RED if it IS a 51% location.

FYI, when a person gets a license from TABC they get a package of all signs which might be used and they sometimes get them posted incorrectly. If you find this situation you can simply notify TABC and they will follow up to get the proper signs in place.

Finally, you assumption at the liquor store was correct, the "unlicensed possession" sign was the correct one.

I hope this helps...best to you.

[FrankRinTX]

Thank you for all the great information!

Good to know the 51% sign does not carry the force of law unless it is truly a 51% establishment.

[CWOOD]

Thank you for all the great information!

Good to know the 51% sign does not carry the force of law unless it is truly a 51% establishment.

Remember it is the place that is critical, not the sign. The sign is only advisory.

Glad it helped.

[sjfcontrol]

To make this situation even more complex....

There are places that are licensed for both on-site and takeout liquor sales. In those situations, it appears the TABC considers ALL alcohol sales when determining the 51% status. So you could have a situation where such an establishment gets less than 51% of income from on-site consumed liquor sales, but is still legally required to display the 51% sign (as total sales of alcohol DOES exceed 51%).

Confused yet?

[CWOOD]

To make this situation even more complex....

There are places that are licensed for both on-site and takeout liquor sales. In those situations, it appears the TABC considers ALL alcohol sales when determining the 51% status. So you could have a situation where such an establishment gets less than 51% of income from on-site consumed liquor sales, but is still legally required to display the 51% sign (as total sales of alcohol DOES exceed 51%).

Confused yet?

I am not familiar with this. Could you give an example of such a place?

In anycase, check the license to be sure.

Thanks

[sjfcontrol]

To make this situation even more complex....

There are places that are licensed for both on-site and takeout liquor sales. In those situations, it appears the TABC considers ALL alcohol sales when determining the 51% status. So you could have a situation where such an establishment gets less than 51% of income from on-site consumed liquor sales, but is still legally required to display the 51% sign (as total sales of alcohol DOES exceed 51%).

Confused yet?

I am not familiar with this. Could you give an example of such a place?

In anycase, check the license to be sure.

Thanks

I said much the same thing when this was pointed out to me. See this thread...

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... r&start=15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CWOOD]

To make this situation even more complex....

There are places that are licensed for both on-site and takeout liquor sales. In those situations, it appears the TABC considers ALL alcohol sales when determining the 51% status. So you could have a situation where such an establishment gets less than 51% of income from on-site consumed liquor sales, but is still legally required to display the 51% sign (as total sales of alcohol DOES exceed 51%).

Confused yet?

I am not familiar with this. Could you give an example of such a place?

In anycase, check the license to be sure.

Thanks

I said much the same thing when this was pointed out to me. See this thread...

http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... r&start=15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Excellent info. Thanks for taking the time to point it out.
The lesson is to check the license if there is ANY doubt:

SIGN = BLUE this means the place is NOT 51%
SIGN = RED this means the place IS a 51% location.....as determined by TABC

[OldSchool]

The lesson is to check the license if there is ANY doubt:

SIGN = BLUE this means the place is NOT 51%
SIGN = RED this means the place IS a 51% location.....as determined by TABC

We're working on building the habit of watching for pertinent signs when entering/leaving businesses (it's slowly starting to take hold).

Since most of the restaurants around here do serve alcohol, we've been watching for licenses and/or 51 signs -- but have yet to see either sign!

They don't seem to put either one in a conspicuous place -- or is it just us?

[Keith B]

The lesson is to check the license if there is ANY doubt:

SIGN = BLUE this means the place is NOT 51%
SIGN = RED this means the place IS a 51% location.....as determined by TABC

We're working on building the habit of watching for pertinent signs when entering/leaving businesses (it's slowly starting to take hold).

Since most of the restaurants around here do serve alcohol, we've been watching for licenses and/or 51 signs -- but have yet to see either sign!

They don't seem to put either one in a conspicuous place -- or is it just us?

Most restaurants will have the blue unlicensed weapon sign (a non-51% location) at the entrance. The liquor license will usually be posted somewhere near the bar, so will probably NOT be at the entrance. That is where you see the SIGN = RED or SIGN = BLUE. A 51% sign is supposed to be at the entrance, but could potentially be posted incorrectly or not at all.

[RPB]

I have seen some restaurants, that contained a sort of separate sectioned off area that was a bar.
I suppose if they were the same owner, but technically different "companies" for incorporation/tax/insurance or whatever purpose, they could have 2 licenses, and 2 signs, one under 51 and one over 51, depending on if you are in the restaurant or club/bar area.

I just hope the ONLY bathroom isn't in the bar. I knew one restaurant/bar with fantastic Chicken Fried steak, in Pasadena, where there was only one bathroom, and you and to go through the bar to get to it.
MIss .... waitress ...., may I have an empty water glass please?

[Keith B]

I have seen some restaurants, that contained a sort of separate sectioned off area that was a bar.
I suppose if they were the same owner, but technically different "companies" for incorporation/tax/insurance or whatever purpose, they could have 2 licenses, and 2 signs, one under 51 and one over 51, depending on if you are in the restaurant or club/bar area.

I just hope the ONLY bathroom isn't in the bar. I knew one restaurant/bar with fantastic Chicken Fried steak, in Pasadena, where there was only one bathroom, and you and to go through the bar to get to it.
MIss .... waitress ...., may I have an empty water glass please?

If I am not mistaken, the license applies to the whole location, so not sure they could have seperate ones. I could be mistaken though.

[RPB]

I don't know either. I know a sign outside said Ernie's and inside the door into a foyer, then you walked to the right to go to into Ernies bar, or to the left to go to Ernies Restaurant, they shared a roof and front door and common foyer.
(We have a pharmacy and former radio shack electronics store here that's like that, but 2 separate companies by the same owner in the same building)
If you ordered a drink from the bar while eating a meal, it was a separate waitress and separate bill than your food was.
If you sat in the bar and ordered food, you'd have 2 waitresses and 2 bills also...

He sold it and built a building with a separate bar area inside the restaurant. You walked through the restaurant to get to the bar, bathrooms in the restaurant.
"Peppers" moved in the old place.

I dunno.