Odd & Uncomfortable Situation

[SlowDave]

We had a situation at church once where we were concerned about the possibility of an "event." Called the police and let them know, and they sent a plain-clothes officer to attend the services. No one knew, but it was very comforting having him there. Police want to be there before the crime if possible, and I think if they're looking at having an officer drive around providing a "presence" in the town vs. going to a location that has a risky outlook, they'll generally find someone to be there. Might even be an off-duty, church attending officer that is willing to visit other churches when a need like this arises. I think if you just tell them your situation, they'll very likely get someone there. And there's really no reason not to. Hopefully, it is a completely uneccessary precaution.

[casingpoint]

OP, you have a psychotic person with obvious violent tendencies who may try to attend services tomorrow. Don't let us hear about it on the news.

[SlowDave]

Update? Everything go okay today?

[pdubyoo]

Well, he did show-up today, as expected. He was wearing a very baggy untucked shirt, which was an immediate red flag. There were several men that were aware of the situation, and followed him into the auditorium, and just happened to sit all around him.

He had a verbal outburst about 5 minutes into the service...something about the election on Tuesday, but it wasn't completely clear what he said...he was too far away. One of the guys leaned-over and said something to him, and he stopped. About 10 minutes later during a pastor-lead prayer, he started singing God Bless America. He was quickly escorted out by four men that surrounded him. I'm not sure what happened following that, but there were two men which I didn't recognize, that got up and left at the same time, and didn't come back in later. I'm guessing that they were undercover LEOs, but that hasn't been confirmed.

It was a bit tense for a few minutes, but things were handled in an effective and appropriate manner. What a weird situation. My wife is a mental health professional, and she said that he's clearly schizophrenic, and was off his meds. She said that there's no telling what the voices in his head were telling him to do.

Edited to correct spelling...

[rosebud99]

handled the best way... no one hurt

[frazzled]

Sounds like you or the pastor had indeed involved the authorities prior to the service.
Glad everything went ok.

[MechAg94]

Have some "non-security" guys sit close to him in the event he does try anything they can respond in a timely manner and he will be none the wiser. I think bringing him into the fold is a better approach then keeping him at arms length when he feels part of something maybe he will have a better demeanor and be less of a threat.

This. That might be the best thing beyond calling the police. If he does try something the next service, you might at least have people close enough to stop him or at least be credible witnesses.
They might also talk to him a bit.

[Excaliber]

Well, he did show-up today, as expected. He was wearing a very baggy untucked shirt, which was an immediate red flag. There were several men that were aware of the situation, and followed him into the auditorium, and just happened to sit all around him.

He had a verbal outburst about 5 minutes into the service...something about the election on Tuesday, but it wasn't completely clear what he said...he was too far away. One of the guys leaned-over and said something to him, and he stopped. About 10 minutes later during a pastor-lead prayer, he started singing God Bless America. He was quickly escorted out by four men that surrounded him. I'm not sure what happened following that, but there were two men which I didn't recognize, that got up and left at the same time, and didn't come back in later. I'm guessing that they were undercover LEOs, but that hasn't been confirmed.

It was a bit tense for a few minutes, but things were handled in an effective and appropriate manner. What a weird situation. My wife is a mental health professional, and she said that he's clearly schizophrenic, and was off his meds. She said that there's no telling what the voices in his head were telling him to do.

Edited to correct spelling...

In view of this behavior, you might do well to consider not admitting him into the building in the future.

His prior behavior has effectively put the church on notice that he is at risk for violent behavior which could reasonably be expected to result in injury or death to innocent persons. You've certainly got enough objective information to support a concern for the safety of the entire congregation. That same information would also make it very difficult to explain after a serious incident why the church continued to expose its members to an identified significant risk when the simple alternative of excluding him from the premises was available.

If you have the resources, you could contact his family and assist them in identifying and securing the help he needs. However, as I see it, your primary responsibility lies with taking appropriate action to ensure the safety of your congregation.

There's enough going on here that you would do well to contact the church's legal advisor and insurance carrier for advice on managing the liability aspects of your decisions.

[PeteCamp]

That same information would also make it very difficult to explain after a serious incident why the church continued to expose its members to an identified significant risk when the simple alternative of excluding him from the premises was available.

Excalibur has hit it on the head twice now. I am a police chaplain as well as a retired (is there such a thing?) pastor. I still pastor a small congregation that cannot afford a full-time pastor.

I would be very concerned about this situation, were I the pastor. Many well-meaning church members still live under the false assumption that evil individuals only need love, understanding, and the gospel of Christ to change their ways. While valid theologically, oftentimes such a notion has never really served to deter individuals bent on violence and destruction - truly evil people. Today, with the general loss of all respect for churches, it is a fatal assumption.

God created us with a free will. Some exercise it by doing horrible things. Some do so and seem to enjoy it. And here is the trouble: You frequently don't know you have one until after they do something horrible. Your congregation has the right to be safe in their house of worship. I take very seriously my responsibility to preserve that. I am thankful no one was hurt. I pray your church will emplace safeguards to insure the man doesn't return later with a heart filled with vengeance. Be safe.

[pdubyoo]

Two very good points...
- Follow-up with the man's family, if they can be found. The man was clearly off his meds.
- Consult with the insurance carrier for their advice.

The ushers and greeters have been advised that he should not be allowed back in. I completely agree. I assume that the church board had a meeting about this during the week last week, because things were quite organized as to how to handle the man's visit and potential disruptions. The actions taken were well orchestrated. I'm not sure how many "heaters" were in the service last Sunday, but I'm fairly certian that there were several.

Interestingly enough, this guy always gives the office a heads-up before he shows-up on Sunday.

I appreciate the thoughts and advice that this forum offers. Y'all are great! I'll let you know if any new developments come out of this.

[frazzled]

Two very good points...
- Follow-up with the man's family, if they can be found. The man was clearly off his meds.
- Consult with the insurance carrier for their advice.

The ushers and greeters have been advised that he should not be allowed back in. I completely agree. I assume that the church board had a meeting about this during the week last week, because things were quite organized as to how to handle the man's visit and potential disruptions. The actions taken were well orchestrated. I'm not sure how many "heaters" were in the service last Sunday, but I'm fairly certian that there were several.

Interestingly enough, this guy always gives the office a heads-up before he shows-up on Sunday.

I appreciate the thoughts and advice that this forum offers. Y'all are great! I'll let you know if any new developments come out of this.

Q out to everyone. In this cirumstance, how would the ushers and greeters keep him from entering? I say this as an usher team leader and have wondered about that.

[Dragonfighter]

I would be very concerned about this situation, were I the pastor. Many well-meaning church members still live under the false assumption that evil individuals only need love, understanding, and the gospel of Christ to change their ways.

Understanding may not be practical or even possible for an evil person and without getting into nuances of possession, I think you have one that is definitely not able to be taught. As pastor/shepherd you are responsible to the flock and must protect them. I think it was handled well.

[pdubyoo]

I won't go so far as to call this guy evil. Frankly, I don't know much of anything about him. But, according to a couple of mental health counselors who witnessed him, my wife included, this man is simply sick and needs to get back on his meds. He is likely schizophrenic, or has some other psychosis disorder, which can be caused from head trauma, stroke, drug use or a multitude of other contributing factors. The fact that this guy is talking to himself and is disruptive is likely due to the fact that he can't see what's going on around him. He has too much going on in his own head. He's probably hearing voices...thinking they're telling him what to do, etc.

None of that detracts from the fact that he could be quite dangerous. With all that stuff going on in his head, he's probably lacking the ability to reason between right and wrong, or to have boundaries defining right and wrong. And his actions are very impulsive and unpredictable. He seemed to take instructions without any hesitation or defiance. When he was told that he needed to leave because he was being disruptive, he did.

I feel really bad for the guy, but I certainly won't let that lull me into letting my guard down. I hope this saga is over, but I guess time will tell.

[texas1234]

Petecamp....you post was excellent. Thank you!

[ClarkLZeuss]

Not a comment on the situation but just a side note: it's funny how many of us church tech guys are also CHLs.