How to hold a magazine

[bayouhazard]

People have diferent builds. Different physical capabilities and limitations. If you tried other ways and your way works better for you, that's what's important. However you index, you should be able to do magazine changes smoothly with your eyes closed.

[TxD]

This advice is what I have seen coming from the majority of training systems I've looked at. However, for whatever reason, it feels extremely awkward to me to store the magazine with the bullet facing forward. I have to twist my wrist around in an uncomfortable position to make the draw.

I agree. It's far more natural (not to mention you get a surer grip) to carry with bullets pointing backwards. I index my thumb along the back of the magazine.

In almost 24 years of free style competitive shooting where all guns, equipment, and techniques are sorely tested, and where fumbling a reload could cost the match, I have only seen or heard of one "Top 16 shooter" who carried the mags with bullet tips to the rear.

This is not a "monkey see monkey do" process.
The top shooters in these sports will challenge everything for a competitive edge.

The "competitive" technique of reloading a bottom feeding autoloader transfers very well to
a "tactical" technique.
Perhaps this is why it is taught by most if not all firearm instructors/trainers as stated above.

I like saying "Bottom Feeder".

[Keith B]

So this is not the correct way??





It has been a lot of years since I competed, but always pulled mine from the mag pouch between thumb and forefinger and rotated it into position resting on the palm of my hand to slam it into the mag well.

[chabouk]

No, I'm right handed and have the mag holder on the left hip. To grab the magazine when it's stored in the bullet forward position, my elbow moves out away from my body and the rotation of the magazine is sideways. With the bullets pointed to the rear, my elbow stays tight, my wrist is in a comfortable position, and the rotation is a very natural forward motion straight into the mag well.

Yep. Drawing a "bullets forward" magazine takes the same motion as drawing your pistol butt-forward.

[TxD]

No, I'm right handed and have the mag holder on the left hip. To grab the magazine when it's stored in the bullet forward position, my elbow moves out away from my body and the rotation of the magazine is sideways. With the bullets pointed to the rear, my elbow stays tight, my wrist is in a comfortable position, and the rotation is a very natural forward motion straight into the mag well.

Yep. Drawing a "bullets forward" magazine takes the same motion as drawing your pistol butt-forward.

I think I now see the problem.
Your draw stroke on the magazine is incorrect for bullets
forward.

The magazine draw stroke for bullets forward is the same as the normal gun draw stroke.

On the gun draw stroke, the hand moves to the gun and you place your thumb on the inside
of the grip with your fingers on the outside.
Now for loading purposes draw the gun and bring it about 12" in front of your chin with the palm up. The barrel is pointed up and left at about a 45 degree angle. Keep it there.

On the magazine draw duplicate the same arm and hand movement with the other hand.
In same manner as the gun draw and you place your thumb on the inside of the magazine (closest to your body) and the fingers on the outside of the magazine with the pointer aligned on the front.

Now draw the magazine from it's holder, as the pointer finger aligns with the forward (rounded) edge, move the arm upward to the magwell with the palm facing your body
and slightly up.

You now have the gun in front of your chin palm up and the magazine in front of your chin
with the palm facing your body and the pointer aligned with the magwell.

Look at a spot in the mag well and put the magazine in there.

It's harder to explain than it would be to show.
Hope this helps.

[chabouk]

I understand the process, TxD, and I've tried it that way. It still requires rotating the wrist (palm down to palm up; magazine pointing down, to pointing up), and that's not needed with my technique. When I draw a magazine and move it to the gun, it's automatically oriented properly without any further twists or turns.

Try this: with empty hands, pretend you've got a firing grip on a pistol, with a "high thumbs" grip. Now, pull your weak hand straight back to your magazine pouch, draw with your thumb along the leading edge (the back, or spine) of the magazine, and then bring it up to insert. It's just as if you were going to shove your weak thumb into your strong fist. The motion is more efficient. Your weak hand automatically falls very quickly back into your high thumbs grip.

Someone commented earlier about how the vast majority of competitors use the more popular method, and that they would try anything that would give them an edge, so that way must be better. I have to disagree: look at how infrequently basic shooting stances and grips change, and only when someone influential is able to show a significant improvement. Everyone shot bladed/isosceles/Weaver/Improved Weaver/Modified Weaver/whatever, because everyone else was doing so at the time. Today's competitive shooters have invested tens of thousands of hours developing repetitive muscle memory to do things a certain way, exactly the same way every time. They're not very receptive to change, and it would take an awful lot of hard work to overcome all that previous training.

Would they be faster using my method? I don't know that they would. But I am much more comfortable with it, it affords me a better grip on the magazine, it's more economical of motion, and requires less dexterity.

Oh, and FYI, I'm not talking about competitive shooting. I draw and shoot with the same dress and equipment I wear for everyday carry.

[Excaliber]

I understand the process, TxD, and I've tried it that way. It still requires rotating the wrist (palm down to palm up; magazine pointing down, to pointing up), and that's not needed with my technique. When I draw a magazine and move it to the gun, it's automatically oriented properly without any further twists or turns.

Try this: with empty hands, pretend you've got a firing grip on a pistol, with a "high thumbs" grip. Now, pull your weak hand straight back to your magazine pouch, draw with your thumb along the leading edge (the back, or spine) of the magazine, and then bring it up to insert. It's just as if you were going to shove your weak thumb into your strong fist. The motion is more efficient. Your weak hand automatically falls very quickly back into your high thumbs grip.

Someone commented earlier about how the vast majority of competitors use the more popular method, and that they would try anything that would give them an edge, so that way must be better. I have to disagree: look at how infrequently basic shooting stances and grips change, and only when someone influential is able to show a significant improvement. Everyone shot bladed/isosceles/Weaver/Improved Weaver/Modified Weaver/whatever, because everyone else was doing so at the time. Today's competitive shooters have invested tens of thousands of hours developing repetitive muscle memory to do things a certain way, exactly the same way every time. They're not very receptive to change, and it would take an awful lot of hard work to overcome all that previous training.

Would they be faster using my method? I don't know that they would. But I am much more comfortable with it, it affords me a better grip on the magazine, it's more economical of motion, and requires less dexterity.

Oh, and FYI, I'm not talking about competitive shooting. I draw and shoot with the same dress and equipment I wear for everyday carry.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Now I finally understand your technique.

In the belief that none of us is as smart as all of us, I gave it a try. Here are my impressions:

1. It feels really awkward, as expected, because it's not what I'm used to.
2. The way the fingers end up placed on the magazine with this technique is not as stable or secure as the "bullets forward" draw.
3. The technique puts the base plate of the magazine in the wrong part of my palm for smooth and sure insertion.

There may be body build or dexterity differences that make the "bullets to the rear" method better for you, but for me it certainly would not be as smooth or fast as the more commonly accepted method.

[gwashorn]

I have read most all of these techniques and tried them out in hopes of finding the correct way that does work for me AND is actually the most reliable under stress when I may actually have to use it. During some of the NRA training courses I experimented and found that of course I am strange. Now I use my XD dual mag carrier at present. So how I do this may change if and when I change mag carrier. Mentioned above about physical issues etc does come into play for me. I am right handed and have arthritis in the left hand thumb joint. I carry my mags on weak side left side. Front magazine bullets facing forward and back magazine bullets facing rearward. I tried all directions in each slot while doing tactical loads during the tests. I found the front mag tips forward works great as suggested. But the back magazine my thumb can not turn well as needed and my finger tip lines up on the bullet tip with it facing rearward, fits in my palm and lines up with the mag well facing correctly to be slammed in. So this is how I carry. Now the XD pouch is a "V" angled carry that may have something to do with this. Certainly, if I change carriers, I WILL re-evaluate to make sure what I do under stress will work without fumbling.

Good reading on this thread, thanks
Gary

[Excaliber]

I have read most all of these techniques and tried them out in hopes of finding the correct way that does work for me AND is actually the most reliable under stress when I may actually have to use it. During some of the NRA training courses I experimented and found that of course I am strange. Now I use my XD dual mag carrier at present. So how I do this may change if and when I change mag carrier. Mentioned above about physical issues etc does come into play for me. I am right handed and have arthritis in the left hand thumb joint. I carry my mags on weak side left side. Front magazine bullets facing forward and back magazine bullets facing rearward. I tried all directions in each slot while doing tactical loads during the tests. I found the front mag tips forward works great as suggested. But the back magazine my thumb can not turn well as needed and my finger tip lines up on the bullet tip with it facing rearward, fits in my palm and lines up with the mag well facing correctly to be slammed in. So this is how I carry. Now the XD pouch is a "V" angled carry that may have something to do with this. Certainly, if I change carriers, I WILL re-evaluate to make sure what I do under stress will work without fumbling.

Good reading on this thread, thanks
Gary

I only use mag pouches that hold the mags in parallel so both mags face the same way and I use the same grip on both. I don't like the V types. Trying to remember which way to grab which magazine is more than I'd count on being able to do under stress.

[CompVest]

I understand the process, TxD, and I've tried it that way. It still requires rotating the wrist (palm down to palm up; magazine pointing down, to pointing up), and that's not needed with my technique. When I draw a magazine and move it to the gun, it's automatically oriented properly without any further twists or turns.

Try this: with empty hands, pretend you've got a firing grip on a pistol, with a "high thumbs" grip. Now, pull your weak hand straight back to your magazine pouch, draw with your thumb along the leading edge (the back, or spine) of the magazine, and then bring it up to insert. It's just as if you were going to shove your weak thumb into your strong fist. The motion is more efficient. Your weak hand automatically falls very quickly back into your high thumbs grip.

Someone commented earlier about how the vast majority of competitors use the more popular method, and that they would try anything that would give them an edge, so that way must be better. I have to disagree: look at how infrequently basic shooting stances and grips change, and only when someone influential is able to show a significant improvement. Everyone shot bladed/isosceles/Weaver/Improved Weaver/Modified Weaver/whatever, because everyone else was doing so at the time. Today's competitive shooters have invested tens of thousands of hours developing repetitive muscle memory to do things a certain way, exactly the same way every time. They're not very receptive to change, and it would take an awful lot of hard work to overcome all that previous training.

Would they be faster using my method? I don't know that they would. But I am much more comfortable with it, it affords me a better grip on the magazine, it's more economical of motion, and requires less dexterity.

Oh, and FYI, I'm not talking about competitive shooting. I draw and shoot with the same dress and equipment I wear for everyday carry.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Now I finally understand your technique.

In the belief that none of us is as smart as all of us, I gave it a try. Here are my impressions:

1. It feels really awkward, as expected, because it's not what I'm used to.
2. The way the fingers end up placed on the magazine with this technique is not as stable or secure as the "bullets forward" draw.
3. The technique puts the base plate of the magazine in the wrong part of my palm for smooth and sure insertion.

There may be body build or dexterity differences that make the "bullets to the rear" method better for you, but for me it certainly would not be as smooth or fast as the more commonly accepted method.

My impressions exactly Excaliber. Gave it a try multiple times and I came away with the same observations.

[gwashorn]

Excaliber - "Trying to remember which way to grab which magazine is more than I'd count on being able to do under stress."

Yeah, I understand your position and I agree. But to be clear for me it requires me to think to do it the other way. Under stress my strange arrangmenet works unconsiously without thinking. Part of the reason is the arthritis in my thumb almost forces me to reach different for the rear mag so for my physical needs it works best this way. Now, my goal is to finally get a full matching belt and holster rig that Riverrat is designing for me. We have not decided the mag pouch yet for what I want. So I suspect I will drop to a single pouch which uncomplicates it for me. Now if I ever get my tail out and start trying the IDPA then it is a different matter and my double pouch will be used and I suspect as is for now. Still great discussions here for me. Thanks

Gary

[CompVest]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with performing a task in any way that is safe and works for you. There are many times when instructing I may need a student to perform an action different than the current wisdom to get the best results.

I really appreciate your sharing your way with us. I now have another option for students if needed.

The important thing is to be sure that a "new" way of performing an action is useful and has a purpose. It is easy to fall into doing something just because a top performer does it. These actions may be affectations and not useful.

[gwashorn]

Compvest, yes and that was why I finally ended up this way. I was forcing for a long time to have both the same way but in training courses etc, I kept grabbing one mag wrong. Finally hit me after reading and checking on the quoted "normal" ways that perhaps I need to check the differences and found the front rear grab was different if I did not "think" about it. Now it is just natural. Course I am an AGGIE, so maybe there is another reason? GRIN

Gary

[TxD]

I understand the process, TxD, and I've tried it that way.

Fair enough.

You stated above in a previous post that the elbow position for a bullets forward mag draw stroke was the same as a for butt forward gun draw stroke.
This is incorrect and therefore indicated that you might not "understand the process".

The phrase "use what's best for you" can be very limiting unless the various methods
are tried correctly and this was the basis for my comments.

[srothstein]

You know, you guys have been talking about how to hold a magazine with your fingers, and commenting on different holds and how they feel natural or not. But you may have missed an important part of this. Where and how the magazine is kept on the belt will make a significant difference to how you draw it and feed it in. I only really learned this when SAPD switched to Glocks and they wanted all of us to carry the magazine holder in a horizontal position. It never felt natural to me since the Army had us carry them upright. I did experiment with different locations on the belt, and even with a 9 o'clock position in plainclothes. Each location and the orientation made a big difference.