NYC Cops with....machine guns?

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Kythas
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NYC Cops with....machine guns?

Post by Kythas »

Gotta love the liberal press who can't tell the difference between a semi-automatic AR-15 and an "M16 machine gun".

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/rail ... vYe2LV3zTN
Stand clear of the submachine guns.

In an unusual move, a heavily armed NYPD security battalion with enough firepower to wipe out Downtown Brooklyn descended onto the city's subway trains yesterday in response to suicide bombings in Russia that killed dozens of passengers in Moscow's subway.

Bleary-eyed New Yorkers began their work weeks with a morning rush hour that featured city cops in full military gear, including helmets, goggles, body armor, sidearms and M16 assault rifles.

The underground arsenal startled sleepy straphangers, many of whom wondered whether the extra security was overkill.

"I think it's excessive," said Holly Celentang, 26, a rider from Queens. "It's Easter this week, and you have families with young kids on the subway, and I'm sure cops with machine guns would scare them.

"I feel there should have been a bit more of a thought process before they did this. We can't lose our heads over something that happened in another country and make New York City look like we are at war."

Torey Deprisest, 23, who was vacationing from Ohio, said he was stunned at the show of force.

"I think it's ridiculous," Deprisest said. "The attack happened in a different country and had nothing to do with Americans. I'd be nervous seeing cops with machine guns on the train. It makes people afraid when they don't need to be."

But other riders praised the heavily armed cop presence.

"I don't think it's overkill. We need to be protected -- you never know," said Renee Burke, 56, of Manhattan. "After 9/11, we learned the hard way that anything is possible. I feel protected when I see police riding the subway."

Joe Kerick, 46, of New Jersey, agreed, saying: "Better overkill than under-response. If the terrorists see an under-response, they may think we are vulnerable."

City and MTA officials dialed up security a few notches after two female suicide bombers blew themselves up in twin attacks on the Moscow subway system early yesterday morning, killing at least 38 people.

Officials quickly said the coordinated attacks were isolated to tensions between Russia and dissident Chechens. Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin blamed Islamic separatists in the Caucasus region, where Russian forces fought the Chechens a decade ago.

Even so, New York City authorities said they were taking no chances. Officials doubled patrols of the subway system and dispatched NYPD's heavily armed Hercules units to several transit hubs, including Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal.

Regular NYPD cops usually assigned to the city's subways overnight also were held in place so they overlapped with the day tour.

Mayor Bloomberg said authorities "did ramp up our coverage a little bit this morning" after the Moscow bombings.

"We change it every day, and for security reasons, obviously, we're not going to tell anybody what we're doing," Bloomberg said. "But you can rest assured we have great interest in what goes on around the world."

An NYPD spokesman said there was no indication that the Moscow attacks were related to anything planned against the New York City subway system.

Officials said cops made similar armed forays after 9/11 and after attacks on London's transit system in 2005 killed 52 people.

But the presence of the heavily armed cops actually on trains is rare.

Several al Qaeda-linked subway bomb plots in the city have been foiled in recent years, including a plan by Afghan immigrant Najibullah Zazi to detonate a bomb on the system.

Local Russians followed the Moscow developments closely and denounced the attacks in their home country as senseless.

"I feel so terrible," said Vladimir Traynin, 51, of Brooklyn's Brighton Beach. "I lived five minutes from where it happened, and I know the area very well. I feel scared for people's safety. They are in shock."

Oleh Kachur, 46, also of Brighton Beach, said the attack did not surprise him.

"You can predict this for now and in the future," Kachur said. "It's a problem of religion. We have to treat people equally whether they are Chechen or Russian."

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/rail ... z0jfyNgwQY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: NYC Cops with....machine guns?

Post by Mike1951 »

Since law enforcement agencies may legitimately use full auto/select fire firearms, they may actually be M-16's. Additionally, refurbished military M-16's are made available to police. In short, I saw nothing that would identify the firearms as AR-15s or M-16s.

But unless they're also using MP5s or similar, the submachine gun comment is incorrect.
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Re: NYC Cops with....machine guns?

Post by SQLGeek »

"Machine guns"? I don't see any Browning M1919s or M249s setup. :mrgreen:
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Re: NYC Cops with....machine guns?

Post by MoJo »

All I see in the photo is two short barreled AR style guns. Who's to say they aren't real M4 carbines? Police departments can have full automatic weapons and short barreled rifles and shotguns. I've been involved with AR15/M16/M4 style weapons since 1967 and the only way I know to tell if the rifle is an M16 or M4 is to look and see if the selector goes to "Auto" or "Burst"
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Re: NYC Cops with....machine guns?

Post by seamusTX »

The New York Post is owned by Rupert Murdoch. :roll:

NYPD officers have had M4s for about five years.

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Re: NYC Cops with....machine guns?

Post by wheelgun1958 »

Last I checked these terrorists aren't attacking in droves. What's all the weaponry needed for? :confused5

Maybe they're preparing for health insurance enforcement. Let's see your card, comrade. :roll:
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Re: NYC Cops with....machine guns?

Post by karder »

While I am all for the extra security, bomb sniffing dogs might be more valuable than M4s in thwarting attacks like the ones in Moscow. While I am no expert, it seems like a heavier emphasis on K-9 units in counter-terrorism security work would be valuable.
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Re: NYC Cops with....machine guns?

Post by ScottDLS »

They ought to consider HK MP-5 sub-machine guns. Load them up with JHP. Seems like 5.56mm M4 carbine is overkill for tight spaces like subway, bus/train stations. You shoot someone with a FMJ 5.56mm and you're likely to kill the person behind him too.
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Re: NYC Cops with....machine guns?

Post by PeteCamp »

"I feel there should have been a bit more of a thought process before they did this. We can't lose our heads over something that happened in another country and make New York City look like we are at war."
These pinheads need to go look at the holes where the WTC used to stand. Surprise! We have been at war since 2001.
They ought to consider HK MP-5 sub-machine guns. Load them up with JHP. Seems like 5.56mm M4 carbine is overkill for tight spaces like subway, bus/train stations. You shoot someone with a FMJ 5.56mm and you're likely to kill the person behind him too.
No, completely wrong. 9mm rounds through an MP5 (or any 9mm handgun) penetrate much better than do 5.56 rounds. Curiously, as much as the 9mm likes to penetrate people and walls and such, it won't even come close to penetrating Level III body armor. Also have you ever priced an MP5? You can buy lots of new AR's for what one costs. Check out this for some real world data in an easy to digest format about penetration:
[urlhttp://www.theboxotruth.com/][/url]
"I think it's excessive," said Holly Celentang, 26, a rider from Queens. "It's Easter this week, and you have families with young kids on the subway, and I'm sure cops with machine guns would scare them.
I would be a lot more frightened by Mayor Bloomberg than anybody carrying around a machine gun! Sorry ..
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Re: NYC Cops with....machine guns?

Post by JJVP »

What exactly is a cop with a machine gun going to do to stop a woman or man that has explosives concealed on her/his body from blowing themselves and everyone around them up? Are they going to shoot anyone that has a bulge on them? Or women with large breasts? :confused5
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Re: NYC Cops with....machine guns?

Post by driver8 »

9mm penetrates better than 5.56? 9mm must have been improved a LOT since last year when I tried it. I was shooting at 3/8" plate and the 5.56 punched clean little holes all day long. All the handgun calibers just left little shiney spots except the 44 mag and it just left dents.
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Re: NYC Cops with....machine guns?

Post by CaptWoodrow10 »

I say any show of force on any vulnerable target is a good thing. May convince the BGs that trying something in the subway is a bad idea... At least for a little while. Just MHO, FWIW.
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Re: NYC Cops with....machine guns?

Post by JJVP »

CaptWoodrow10 wrote:I say any show of force on any vulnerable target is a good thing. May convince the BGs that trying something in the subway is a bad idea... At least for a little while. Just MHO, FWIW.
For pickpocket or thugs assaulting people in the subway, yes. For someone like those women in Russia, no. They have the explosives concealed, so the cops would not know they have them and there is nothing they could do to stop them. Unless they are equipped with x-ray glasses, they won't know who has explosives concealed. It might actually encourage terrorist, knowing that they can take care of not only innocent civilians but also a few LEO's. Having armed cops in the subway will do absolutely nothing to prevent a terrorist attack like the one in Russia. Just my $0.02 :nono:
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Re: NYC Cops with....machine guns?

Post by seamusTX »

karder wrote:... bomb sniffing dogs might be more valuable than M4s in thwarting attacks like the ones in Moscow. ... it seems like a heavier emphasis on K-9 units in counter-terrorism security work would be valuable.
You are correct, AFAIK. However, bomb-sniffing dogs are expensive, training for their handlers is expensive, and they can't work long hours. Their noses literally become exhausted. ;-)

Even if the police had effective bomb-sniffers, the suicide bombers could avoid them or denote their explosives seconds before they were detected.

Machine guns are cheap for those who can avoid the paperwork hoops that the hoi polloi are obliged to jump through.

On the whole, I agree that this is "security theater" rather than an effective counter-terrorism measure, but stay tuned ...

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Re: NYC Cops with....machine guns?

Post by seamusTX »

JJVP wrote:Having armed cops in the subway will do absolutely nothing to prevent a terrorist attack like the one in Russia. Just my $0.02 :nono:
It depends upon how dedicated and well-trained the terrorist it.

These women from Chechnya, who call themselves black widows, are fanatical. They can blend in with the population in Europe or the U.S. As long as their nerve holds up until they press the button (or let go of it, however that works), they will succeed in their mission.

Many suicide bombers have been stopped at checkpoints in the Middle East because they were obviously nervous, wearing something under their clothing, and refused to obey commands. However, the pedestrian traffic flow in New York would never permit that kind of scrutiny.

These officers will most like not stop a bomber, but they are a deterrent against terrorists with firearms or the occasional nut job.

It may be worth noting that nearly all mass terror attacks in the U.S. have been committed with bombs, either vehicle bombs, planted bombs, or mail bombs. Bombs are more likely to cause heavy casualties and destruction than other weapons, and allow the perpetrator to escape.

We have not seen mass shootings or attempts at mass hostage-taking by terrorists. I can't say that is an accident of the terrorist mentality or due to the countermeasure that have been taken.

I also wonder if those machine guns are ready to fire. :headscratch

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