Shootout in the Stockyards (Ft Worth)

[Pinkycatcher]

There are a large number of legitimate reasons for a person to be out there at 3.

Pretty much the same list as at 3PM, with maybe the exception of picking the kids up at school.

Some folks here have apparently decided that anyone out at 3AM must be evil. They clearly think that all the people who work night shift should be required to stay home on their days off, too.

Exactly, he could have been talking a walk, especially in stockyards would be a neat experience if you like doing that. Or he could have been outside his hotel.

I'm up and out for "legitimate" legal reasons at 3 am sometimes, coming home from a friends house, partying. Shoot as long as I'm not drunk driving, or breaking any other laws there's no particular reason to think someone up at 3 or 4 or 5 am is doing anything bad.

[Oldgringo]

Pinkycatcher wrote:

If he worked in the general area he would still be there at 3 because the bars close at 2, an hour is more than reasonable to continue to be on the job after it shuts down, especially at a bar. He could have been taking out the trash (which I assume where most places keep their trash is an alley) he could have heard a commotion, saw the lights, been walking to his car, from his car. There are a large number of legitimate reasons for a person to be out there at 3.

Aren't real bars 51% off limit places? If he was working/hanging out/slumming, etc. and armed in a 51% bar wouldn't he be illegal? If he was out drinking at 0300 hrs, could he have been perhaps just a little bit "stewed"? (not that there's anything wrong with being a little bit "stewed")

Too many questions and too many coincidences. The truth will out!

[The Annoyed Man]

There are a large number of legitimate reasons for a person to be out there at 3.

Pretty much the same list as at 3PM, with maybe the exception of picking the kids up at school.

Some folks here have apparently decided that anyone out at 3AM must be evil. They clearly think that all the people who work night shift should be required to stay home on their days off, too.

Exactly, he could have been talking a walk, especially in stockyards would be a neat experience if you like doing that. Or he could have been outside his hotel.

I'm up and out for "legitimate" legal reasons at 3 am sometimes, coming home from a friends house, partying. Shoot as long as I'm not drunk driving, or breaking any other laws there's no particular reason to think someone up at 3 or 4 or 5 am is doing anything bad.

I don't take the view that only bad people are out at 3:00 a.m. That would be ridiculous. I've been out and about at 3:00 a.m. before... ...like getting ready for a fishing trip, etc.

But, I have also said, "Nothing good happens after 10:00 p.m.," or words to that effect. When I worked in an ER, we saw probably 90% of our gunshot patients late in the evening, rather than during the "normal" part of the day. Same with rapes, stabbings, beatings, etc., etc. Daytime emergencies tended to be more medical than surgical, vehicle accidents excepted, plus the occasional occupational injury. So, part of my personal accommodation to safety is to not be out and about after 10:00 p.m. if it can be helped. Obviously, I could be coming home from a movie or a friend's house or something like that later than then, but I am not "out and about," just cruising around looking for something to do. That's when bad ju-ju happens, and if I'm out looking for action, bad ju-ju may find me.

[C-dub]

Pinkycatcher wrote:

If he worked in the general area he would still be there at 3 because the bars close at 2, an hour is more than reasonable to continue to be on the job after it shuts down, especially at a bar. He could have been taking out the trash (which I assume where most places keep their trash is an alley) he could have heard a commotion, saw the lights, been walking to his car, from his car. There are a large number of legitimate reasons for a person to be out there at 3.

Aren't real bars 51% off limit places? If he was working/hanging out/slumming, etc. and armed in a 51% bar wouldn't he be illegal? If he was out drinking at 0300 hrs, could he have been perhaps just a little bit "stewed"? (not that there's anything wrong with being a little bit "stewed")

Too many questions and too many coincidences. The truth will out!

Not if were the owner or an employee that was given permission by the owner, right?

[gemini]

Pinkycatcher wrote:

If he worked in the general area he would still be there at 3 because the bars close at 2, an hour is more than reasonable to continue to be on the job after it shuts down, especially at a bar. He could have been taking out the trash (which I assume where most places keep their trash is an alley) he could have heard a commotion, saw the lights, been walking to his car, from his car. There are a large number of legitimate reasons for a person to be out there at 3.

Aren't real bars 51% off limit places? If he was working/hanging out/slumming, etc. and armed in a 51% bar wouldn't he be illegal? If he was out drinking at 0300 hrs, could he have been perhaps just a little bit "stewed"? (not that there's anything wrong with being a little bit "stewed")

Too many questions and too many coincidences. The truth will out!

Not if were the owner or an employee that was given permission by the owner, right?

How do we know the CHL hadn't returned to his car, re-armed since coming from a 51% location, saw the officer enter the alley, and out of normal curiosity, watched as the officer approached the BG's car, saw what transpired and acted.
I agree that not much good happens after midnight. However, some folks will go to a 51% location to hear a particular band and not drink (myself included). I think the truth has already "come out". I applaud the CHL for not being afraid to act in a situation that could have gone wayyyyyyy south for the LEO in the alley. I'm glad the LEO got to go home unhurt.

[Oldgringo]

Our esteemed colleagues, gemini and C-dub, pose possible scenarios surrounding this early morning incident and raise reasonable questions.

What say you,Gentlereaders? WWYD?

[C-dub]

Our esteemed colleagues, gemini and C-dub, pose possible scenarios surrounding this early morning incident and raise reasonable questions.

What say you,Gentlereaders? WWYD?

Well, I'm not an old gringo yet myself, only 45, but I'm not out at 0300 unless I'm traveling somewhere. And I also don't do the club, bar, band scene. However, I do like to travel at night. Less traffic and lower temperatures, but this does lead to stops at odd hours. So, I guess I could find myself in a similar situation at a rest stop or gas station. I hope I would be able to correctly assess the situation before firing off any shots. Tough call. I won't know for sure until it happens.

[KFP]

I'd be willing to bet that the store owner has a good relationship with the police working in that area and tends to watch their backs. It's possible that he saw the officer checking something out and looked to see what was going on, or it's entirely possible that he made the call to the police regarding the suspicious activity. He could be working a second job late at night to support his family and attempt to pay for the medical costs of his daughter's cancer treatment. Possibilities are always endless, as is the ability to speculate on what we do not know.

I'll also add that it doesn't matter what they were smoking, engaged in, or not engaged in. There are people in the world that won't hesitate to end your life for the change in your pocket or because you gave them a dirty look. If you fail to understand the evil that exists in our world, you place yourself at a disadvantage in my opinion.

[03Lightningrocks]

I don't have much to say about why the officer approached said suspects without proper backup, but I do wonder how taking wild shots at a speeding car "AFTER THE FACT" would be called coming to the aid of an officer. Lucky guy he didn't shoot someone I loved with his expedition of bravado. I would be forced to hunt him down like a dog and get even. It was completely irresponsible shooting at that car. What crime was this moron trying to prevent? The crime had already happened. We are not charged with extracting justice on those we witness doing wrong. If this gun happy retard really cared about the officer or suspected the officer was possibly dead, the proper reaction would be to rush to the officers side in an attempt to render aid. Firing wildly at a moving vehicle, after it does no good to do such an ignorant thing, tells me the guy was like many here appear to be at times and just itching to fire his weapon at someone. Like I said... better hope nobody I love or care about is accidentally shot in a scenario like this. I will exercise the old testament in a way that will make the Egyptians feel as if they got off lucky when they were messing with Moses.

I am in shock the police would commend this behavior... and somewhat ashamed by it at the same time. Just curious folks. Anyone here want to take bets on what will happen if we take pot shots at a car speeding away after hitting some old lady crossing the street? Go ahead... kid yourselves. Give it a try and watch the response. We are not cops fellers... we simply have a license to carry a gun. that is it... nothing about being Barney Fife is involved. Nothing like Deputy Dawg letting off a few stray rounds into an innocent citizen to put our CHL in jeopardy. Again... this clown prevented no crime or saved anyones life. I am going to bust a gut laughing after the news reports he is getting sued by the guy with a bullet in his arm.

[03Lightningrocks]

Quick question? Have the perpetrators of the first crime admitted they knew the guy approaching was a cop? Just curious... I guess I should read all the news stories. Heck... maybe they thought the cop was a guy about to jack them of their drugs so they ran him over. I could see something stupid like that happening if they were both stoned.

It would be like a team of undercover cops kicking down your door. Some of you fellers that carry cocked locked and ready to fire 24/7 might blast away at them. Heck... I might also if I didn't think they were cops and could get to my gun quick enough. I might even run over a person pointing a gun at me in the dark while sitting in my car. My first thought might not be cop.

[Oldgringo]

What 03lighteningrocks said.

My questions exactly, something smells...

[srothstein]

The above having been said, what right thinking patrolman would approach an occupied parked car in an alley at 0300 hrs. from a head-on position? Next question, what was the armed citizen, CHL or not, doing in the alley at that time of morning just as the patrolman was in need? Third question, where were the LEO's partners when all of this went down?

Well, let me give you my personal guess on why the store owner was in the alley area and knew what was going on. He was the one who had originally called the police. Remember that the original officer was investigating reports of suspicious people in the alley doing drugs? Someone who was not normally a criminal had to have called that in, and given the area, I would bet it was a store owner or employee closing for the night. The most probable answer then is he was the one who called and went out to see what the officer would do or if the officer needed to talk to him.

The answer to the first and third questions is the same. The cop made an error called tombstone courage. He was probably used to handling suspicious person calls that turned out to be nothing and thought this would turn out the same way. He canceled backup on the way to the call and then walked down the alley thinking it would turn out to be nothing. This time he guessed wrong and got lucky to survive. It is hard to teach some people to always use good tactics and never cancel cover until you are sure what you are dealing with. Just like we see some CHL's who do not keep full situational awareness, cops get lax too.

I am just glad it worked out for everyone. The cop survived (though he is probably sitting a desk for a while during the shooting investigation. The CHL survived and is getting commended instead of charged with improper force. The bad guy received only a minor injury and was arrested. And the bad guy who was shot also found out just how good a friend his drug buddy was (dumping him to be arrested while injured and driving off to save himself).

[MadMonkey]

There are a large number of legitimate reasons for a person to be out there at 3.

Pretty much the same list as at 3PM, with maybe the exception of picking the kids up at school.

Some folks here have apparently decided that anyone out at 3AM must be evil. They clearly think that all the people who work night shift should be required to stay home on their days off, too.

Heh, my neighbors probably think I'm weird since I'm often heading for Jack in the Box or other fast-food places around 2-3AM on weekends. I work nights and try not to change my schedule too much on the days I'm off so I don't ruin my flow

Being up at those hours does let me see what goes on in my neighborhood at night though... which is usually very little.

[KD5NRH]

The cop made an error called tombstone courage. He was probably used to handling suspicious person calls that turned out to be nothing and thought this would turn out the same way. He canceled backup on the way to the call and then walked down the alley thinking it would turn out to be nothing.

I'm guessing he thought the car was empty when he canceled his backup. I've been guilty of this one a few times working security; no heads visible, walk up much closer than I would approach a known-occupied car, and then find out there's someone with the seat reclined.

[KD5NRH]

Being up at those hours does let me see what goes on in my neighborhood at night though... which is usually very little.

That's the way I like it; if there's nobody else around, it's relatively obvious when a potential BG shows up. It's also easier to get police to check out a loiterer who just gives me a bad feeling at those times.

2-5AM also happens to be an excellent time for landscape and architecture photography in some areas, since there aren't a lot of people or cars moving around, and the colors of low-light long exposures can be really interesting. For example, this shot of the Billy The Kid statue in Hico was taken in the early morning hours when a Hamilton County deputy seemed to be the only other person awake within several miles. He just waved and turned off his headlights as he drove by to avoid overexposing the shot.