No Warrant? No Exigent circumstances? No Problem

[Fangs]

That man is soooooo lucky they didn't shoot him dead when he reached for his cell phone.

Quite possibly his worst decision of his life. If LEOs have guns on me I am keeping my hands up until they cuff me, or specifically tell me otherwise.

[VMI77]

In all fairness, this happened in the People's Republic of California, not America.

[Excaliber]

That man is soooooo lucky they didn't shoot him dead when he reached for his cell phone.

Quite possibly his worst decision of his life. If LEOs have guns on me I am keeping my hands up until they cuff me, or specifically tell me otherwise.

I can't figure out what he was trying to accomplish with that move. It certainly escalated the pucker factor for no apparent gain.

[WildBill]

That man is soooooo lucky they didn't shoot him dead when he reached for his cell phone.

Quite possibly his worst decision of his life. If LEOs have guns on me I am keeping my hands up until they cuff me, or specifically tell me otherwise.

I can't figure out what he was trying to accomplish with that move. It certainly escalated the pucker factor for no apparent gain.

It was a very stupid and dangerous move. I believe that he was trying to show the LEOs that it wasn't a concealed gun.

[mgood]

That man is soooooo lucky they didn't shoot him dead when he reached for his cell phone.

Quite possibly his worst decision of his life. If LEOs have guns on me I am keeping my hands up until they cuff me, or specifically tell me otherwise.

I can't figure out what he was trying to accomplish with that move. It certainly escalated the pucker factor for no apparent gain.

It was a very stupid and dangerous move. I believe that he was trying to show the LEOs that it wasn't a concealed gun.

Yeah, I remember a story (from Florida, maybe?) where a man was shot by LEOs when he reached in his pocket and pulled out his wallet. They said that the black wallet, seen edge on, looked like the slide of a pistol coming up. I can understand that perception and can hardly fault the officers in that tragedy.

[Excaliber]

That man is soooooo lucky they didn't shoot him dead when he reached for his cell phone.

Quite possibly his worst decision of his life. If LEOs have guns on me I am keeping my hands up until they cuff me, or specifically tell me otherwise.

I can't figure out what he was trying to accomplish with that move. It certainly escalated the pucker factor for no apparent gain.

It was a very stupid and dangerous move. I believe that he was trying to show the LEOs that it wasn't a concealed gun.

Yeah, I remember a story (from Florida, maybe?) where a man was shot by LEOs when he reached in his pocket and pulled out his wallet. They said that the black wallet, seen edge on, looked like the slide of a pistol coming up. I can understand that perception and can hardly fault the officers in that tragedy.

A lot of things can look like a gun when first presented, especially in poor lighting, viewed from less than ideal angles, etc. During contact with LEO's it's unnecessarily risky to all involved to take anything out without prior discussion and agreement.

Even on a simple traffic stop I keep my hands on the wheel until I've told the officer where my ID is and I've gotten his permission to reach for it, which I do slowly and deliberately. There's nothing to be gained by surprising officers with unexpected moves or objects during a contact and forcing them to make rapid high consequence decisions on your intentions and their safety - especially when you're one of the good guys or gals.

[baldeagle]

Yeah, I remember a story (from Florida, maybe?) where a man was shot by LEOs when he reached in his pocket and pulled out his wallet. They said that the black wallet, seen edge on, looked like the slide of a pistol coming up. I can understand that perception and can hardly fault the officers in that tragedy.

If you want to know how really hard that is to do, try this. I've gone through it over ten times, and I still suck.

[mgood]

Yeah, I remember a story (from Florida, maybe?) where a man was shot by LEOs when he reached in his pocket and pulled out his wallet. They said that the black wallet, seen edge on, looked like the slide of a pistol coming up. I can understand that perception and can hardly fault the officers in that tragedy.

If you want to know how really hard that is to do, try this. I've gone through it over ten times, and I still suck.

That's cool!
515 on my first try. Only shot one good guy. (Does it bother you that you're supposed to shoot everyone with a gun, even though few, if any, of them are pointing it at you? Fun game, but I think there's a bit of the "only bad guys have guns" attitude in it's design.) I was too slow a few times.

[C-dub]

Yeah, I remember a story (from Florida, maybe?) where a man was shot by LEOs when he reached in his pocket and pulled out his wallet. They said that the black wallet, seen edge on, looked like the slide of a pistol coming up. I can understand that perception and can hardly fault the officers in that tragedy.

If you want to know how really hard that is to do, try this. I've gone through it over ten times, and I still suck.

Interesting. My first try I only scored around 300, but my second try was much better.

Your Score: 675
Average reaction time:
Black Armed:573.56ms
Black Unarmed:657.08ms
White Armed:609.6ms
White Unarmed:602.36ms

[Excaliber]

Yeah, I remember a story (from Florida, maybe?) where a man was shot by LEOs when he reached in his pocket and pulled out his wallet. They said that the black wallet, seen edge on, looked like the slide of a pistol coming up. I can understand that perception and can hardly fault the officers in that tragedy.

If you want to know how really hard that is to do, try this. I've gone through it over ten times, and I still suck.

That's cool!
515 on my first try. Only shot one good guy. (Does it bother you that you're supposed to shoot everyone with a gun, even though few, if any, of them are pointing it at you? Fun game, but I think there's a bit of the "only bad guys have guns" attitude in it's design.) I was too slow a few times.

The game does provide a little insight into how difficult it can be to distinguish objects and threats. Remember none of these guys was moving, they were all in good light, they were facing the observer, and you knew you were at no risk at all - 4 conditions that don't usually happen together when things go south.

Did anyone feel just a twinge of vulnerability when facing a guy with a gun (which wasn't even pointed at the observer)?

Would you have felt a little better if you were observing that same scene from behind a brick wall with just enough of your head showing to allow you to see?

Do you think that situation might give you a bit more time to make a good call without unnecessary risk?

Just askin......

[flb_78]

Game Over
Your Score: 645
Average reaction time:
Black Armed:654.32ms
Black Unarmed:774.68ms
White Armed:668.36ms
White Unarmed:715.52ms

I shot 2 innocents, but I know they did something in their past that made them deserve it!!!

[flb_78]

(Does it bother you that you're supposed to shoot everyone with a gun, even though few, if any, of them are pointing it at you? Fun game, but I think there's a bit of the "only bad guys have guns" attitude in it's design.)

It was developed by the University of Chicago. Until a few weeks ago, if you had a handgun in Chicago, you were a criminal!!

[Excaliber]

(Does it bother you that you're supposed to shoot everyone with a gun, even though few, if any, of them are pointing it at you? Fun game, but I think there's a bit of the "only bad guys have guns" attitude in it's design.)

It was developed by the University of Chicago. Until a few weeks ago, if you had a handgun in Chicago, you were a criminal!!

Or a politician who had gotten peace officer status, as the politicians in Chicago are able to do. Then again, in Chicago, there may not be much difference......

[terryg]

This was a deeply disturbing video. The cellphone move was completely insane, but other than that Mr. Hart seemed to do everything right. I especially liked it that he was caught emphasizing that they did *not* have his permission to search his residence.

The date stamp on the police footage shows April 08. How long would it take a case like this to make it to trial?

[joe817]

I'm embarrassed to admit that I just not viewed the video that bronco posted at the beginning of the thread.

Most disturbing indeed. And I pray that the attitude displayed by the responding officers is NOT in the mainstream mindset of the law enforcement community at large. God help us if it is. Personally I don't think it is. I think it's poor management from the top, through the chain of command to the officers on the beat.

But I have to say, I'm most impressed with the quality of investigative journalism with the story.

On the front page is a chilling commentary:
"Sooner or later, citizens are either going to take back control of their law enforcement agency employees, or come to the unpleasant realization that some of our most treasured and closely-held concepts -- liberty, freedom, self-government -- are little more than myopic self-delusion."