Slavery Bill H.R. 5741

[joe817]

Personally, I think some months in the military under compulsory service would help instill some respect and discipline that today's kids seem to lack.

However, I also agree that giving the President the choice that this bill does, is not the correct way of doing it. It should be a bill specifically stating Military/Civil service, and not up to the President to decide.

Well put dicion. I agree as well on both points.

[HankB]

Morale and discipline in the millitary rose tremendously when they ended the draft and went to all volunteer.

I can believe this.

If I were in the military because I wanted to be, I'd be an excellent soldier, and I'd put up with a lot of the baloney I read about regarding ROEs and such.

If I were drafted in a situation like WWII, I'd be a good soldier and do my duty - just like a couple of million other guys.

If I were drafted because Charlie Rangel and Obama wanted me to serve a cause I didn't believe in, or even opposed . . . I'd be a very, very bad soldier/civil servant. Assuming I went at all.

[TxKimberMan]

If I were drafted in a situation like WWII, I'd be a good soldier and do my duty - just like a couple of million other guys.

President Franklin Roosevelt signed the Selective Training and Service Act of 1940. The United States didn't enter WWII until after Pearl Harbor was attacked on December 7,1941.

If I were drafted because Charlie Rangel and Obama wanted me to serve a cause I didn't believe in

The last time I checked, the bill would have to pass (which it won't) both the House and the Senate, which would include your elected representation. Rangel has been charged by the House - http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/07/29/ ... l?hpt=Sbin

I'd be a very, very bad soldier/civil servant. Assuming I went at all.

All choices have consequences, and in this example they would be severe. If you're prepared to do the time for the crime, then there's no problem.

Personally, I would prefer a legacy of serving my country as a patriot, than serving time as a criminal. Try obtaining a CHL after that.

[bdickens]

I'd be a very, very bad soldier/civil servant. Assuming I went at all.

All choices have consequences, and in this example they would be severe. If you're prepared to do the time for the crime, then there's no problem.

Personally, I would prefer a legacy of serving my country as a patriot, than serving time as a criminal. Try obtaining a CHL after that.

Well, if being incompetent and lazy is a crime, then how is the .gov still functioning when they're all in jail?

[TxKimberMan]

I'd be a very, very bad soldier/civil servant. Assuming I went at all.

All choices have consequences, and in this example they would be severe. If you're prepared to do the time for the crime, then there's no problem.

Personally, I would prefer a legacy of serving my country as a patriot, than serving time as a criminal. Try obtaining a CHL after that.

Well, if being incompetent and lazy is a crime, then how is the .gov still functioning when they're all in jail?

The crime to which I was referring is highlighted above, in case you missed it. Desertion is very much illegal.

[Charles L. Cotton]

For those that believe any mandatory service is slavery, had it not been for mandatory service, we might be exchanging ideas on this forum in German or Japanese.

WWII was my father's generation. He and everyone one of his friends in the service were volunteers. I wonder what the percentage of draftees was for WWII. Even if it was higher than volunteers, I see a very big distinction between drafting for Mr. Roosevelt's War (sorry, I couldn't pass that up) and drafting for anything else.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not anti-military in the slightest, nor was I against the Vietnam War. But starting with landslide-Lyndon, I've long since lost faith in our leadership to decide when and how to fight. I think the decision to fight is a political one, but once made, step out of the way and let the military do its job the way they feel is best. The idea that many men died because we didn't want to put a few "five-hundred pounders" in the top of the citadel in Hue, or because we won't put a "smart bomb" through the dome of a mosque makes my blood boil.

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

America is supposed to be about freedom a forced draft is slavery. We free people do not belong to our government. Our government is supposed to belong to us. Slavery is immoral whether it is government owning us or another man owning us. Most folks who served during both the draft time military an a all volunteer military will agree that the draft time military tends to have more malcontents.

At one time I would have argued with you on this Liberty, but not now. I'm not opposed to a military draft when our country is truly threatened, but otherwise I think we should have an all volunteer military.

There is a practical side I don't think many people are considering. If we had a mandatory service requirement, we absolutely couldn't afford it! Our current military isn't getting all of the equipment it needs because of budgetary considerations. If every person (male and female) were required to serve from age 18 to 20, the cost to equip them would add to our already absurd national debt. And for what? So we could say "everyone has to serve?"

I think mandatory non-military service is clearly unconstitutional. If the federal government can conscript me to work on some project, then why couldn't the State of Texas, or Harris County, or the City of Friendswood. And back to the cost. If every person in a certain age range has to serve, then they just became part of the federal payroll.

Chas.

[baldeagle]

Don't get me wrong; I'm not anti-military in the slightest, nor was I against the Vietnam War. But starting with landslide-Lyndon, I've long since lost faith in our leadership to decide when and how to fight. I think the decision to fight is a political one, but once made, step out of the way and let the military do its job the way they feel is best.

Chas.

Nothing angers me more than to send our boys in harms way and then immediately begin undermining their efforts. If you don't want to fight, don't. But once you commit our troops, get out of the way and let them do their job or bring them home! These stupid half-measure "conflicts" where we make our guys fight with one hand tied behind their back drive me bananas.

[G26ster]

Don't get me wrong; I'm not anti-military in the slightest, nor was I against the Vietnam War. But starting with landslide-Lyndon, I've long since lost faith in our leadership to decide when and how to fight. I think the decision to fight is a political one, but once made, step out of the way and let the military do its job the way they feel is best.

Chas.

Nothing angers me more than to send our boys in harms way and then immediately begin undermining their efforts. If you don't want to fight, don't. But once you commit our troops, get out of the way and let them do their job or bring them home! These stupid half-measure "conflicts" where we make our guys fight with one hand tied behind their back drive me bananas.

I agree with both of you on this "specific" area quite strongly. Where I am saddened though is the position equating a draft, or mandatory military service for those able, to "slavery." I'm not addressing mandatory public service at the whim of a President or Congress, but only mandatory military service of some kind for all able citizens. Apparently to some, feeedom IS free.

[TxKimberMan]

For those that believe any mandatory service is slavery, had it not been for mandatory service, we might be exchanging ideas on this forum in German or Japanese.

WWII was my father's generation. He and everyone one of his friends in the service were volunteers. I wonder what the percentage of draftees was for WWII. Even if it was higher than volunteers, I see a very big distinction between drafting for Mr. Roosevelt's War (sorry, I couldn't pass that up) and drafting for anything else.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not anti-military in the slightest, nor was I against the Vietnam War. But starting with landslide-Lyndon, I've long since lost faith in our leadership to decide when and how to fight. I think the decision to fight is a political one, but once made, step out of the way and let the military do its job the way they feel is best.

Chas.

My father and grandfather served as well in WWII, both volunteers. My father served in the Korea "conflict" too. You pose a very good question as to the ratio of drafted vs. enlisted...however, my point of bringing WWII into this debate was to debunk the "slavery" term being thrown around here. I think calling SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY "slavery" is an insult to those who were drafted and served honorably. Many "slaves" fought and served bravely and with honor to protect the freedom and the rights of people to post that garbage.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Don't get me wrong; I'm not anti-military in the slightest, nor was I against the Vietnam War. But starting with landslide-Lyndon, I've long since lost faith in our leadership to decide when and how to fight. I think the decision to fight is a political one, but once made, step out of the way and let the military do its job the way they feel is best.

Chas.

Nothing angers me more than to send our boys in harms way and then immediately begin undermining their efforts. If you don't want to fight, don't. But once you commit our troops, get out of the way and let them do their job or bring them home! These stupid half-measure "conflicts" where we make our guys fight with one hand tied behind their back drive me bananas.

I agree with both of you on this "specific" area quite strongly. Where I am saddened though is the position equating a draft, or mandatory military service for those able, to "slavery." I'm not addressing mandatory public service at the whim of a President or Congress, but only mandatory military service of some kind for all able citizens. Apparently to some, feeedom IS free.

Freedom isn't fee; either in terms of personal sacrifice or money. But the United States has never had mandatory military service at all times for all people, so why would you take the position that we are saying "freedom is free?" What has changed since 1776? Has freedom been free up to now? Why do we need mandatory military service by every man and woman, even in peace time? How is freedom being served? Ripping people away from their lives to serve the country during time of war is markedly different from doing so during peace time. I don't even agree with a draft during war time, if there are enough volunteers.

As I stated earlier, my opinion on this issue has changed dramatically over my lifetime. At one point, I strongly supported the Israeli policy of 2 yrs. mandatory military service for every man and woman. It sounds fair to the country because everyone shares the burden. It sounded fair to the individual since, under U.S. law, they would enjoy GI benefits when they were out of the service. But as I got older I came to realize that fairness and freedom aren't joined at the hip. In a truly free society, the government shouldn't take people or property unless it is absolutely necessary for the continued existence of our nation; not for the betterment of our nation, but for its survival. Taking someone's real estate and giving it to a developer because it will generate more tax revenue is no more justified than "taking" two years out of someone's life during peace time to wear a uniform.

We use the term "freedom" a lot. The U.S. is supposed to be a free country, but free from what? Free from the government, that's what. Not freedom from Germany, or Japan, Iraq or any other nation. Our freedom is memorialized in the U.S. Constitution and not one word of it protects Americans form foreign governments; it protects us from our own. Yes, our way of life can be attacked or threatened by foreign governments and we can, should and do respond militarily. If we have sufficient volunteers in the military to do the job, then there is no reason to draft anyone. If we don't have sufficient troops, then the exigencies of the circumstances justify suspending our personal freedom to the extent necessary to institute a draft. There is no such emergency during peace time.

Everything I have said deals solely with military service. No rational argument can be made that mandatory civil service preserves American freedom.

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

For those that believe any mandatory service is slavery, had it not been for mandatory service, we might be exchanging ideas on this forum in German or Japanese.

WWII was my father's generation. He and everyone one of his friends in the service were volunteers. I wonder what the percentage of draftees was for WWII. Even if it was higher than volunteers, I see a very big distinction between drafting for Mr. Roosevelt's War (sorry, I couldn't pass that up) and drafting for anything else.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not anti-military in the slightest, nor was I against the Vietnam War. But starting with landslide-Lyndon, I've long since lost faith in our leadership to decide when and how to fight. I think the decision to fight is a political one, but once made, step out of the way and let the military do its job the way they feel is best.

Chas.

My father and grandfather served as well in WWII, both volunteers. My father served in the Korea "conflict" too. You pose a very good question as to the ratio of drafted vs. enlisted...however, my point of bringing WWII into this debate was to debunk the "slavery" term being thrown around here. I think calling SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY "slavery" is an insult to those who were drafted and served honorably. Many "slaves" fought and served bravely and with honor to protect the freedom and the rights of people to post that garbage.

I won't be so presumptuous to speak for Liberty, but I think you read more into his use of the term than was intended. When the country's very existence is threatened, then I don't think drafting someone is wrong. Does it take away a person's freedom? You bet it does, especially if he gets killed. But requiring citizens who enjoy the benefits of our country to defend it in times of peril is not what I would call slavery. However, although I wouldn't have defined the practice as "slavery," drafting people into the military in peace time is not justified,unless there are not enough volunteers to maintain a strong military. It is interfering with a person's life and freedom solely because some people think it's only fair for everyone to serve.

I know many people, especially those my age or older, believe that mandatory military service is simply the price we should pay to live in America. I understand that belief, I respect it, and I disagree with it. The only thing I owe my country in peace time is to respect its laws and institutions and to be ready to answer the call to duty if it is threatened. (Yeah right, I couldn't even carry the pack now!)

Chas.

[G26ster]

My position is not a draft in peacetime, and as far as mandatory military service, I am not speaking of an active duty two year tour in peacetime either taking anyone away from their lives for extended periods. I am speaking of a previously trained force that can be called upon if the need arises. My response was to those who believe a draft, even in time of war, is akin to slavery. I do not think it is just to have only volunteers defend the country. MHO.

[Charles L. Cotton]

My position is not a draft in peacetime, and as far as mandatory military service, I am not speaking of an active duty two year tour in peacetime either taking anyone away from their lives for extended periods. I am speaking of a previously trained force that can be called upon if the need arises. My response was to those who believe a draft, even in time of war, is akin to slavery. I do not think it is just to have only volunteers defend the country. MHO.

Then you and I are not far apart. Thanks for the clarification.

Chas.

[TxKimberMan]

I won't be so presumptuous to speak for Liberty, but I think you read more into his use of the term than was intended.

The title of this thread is "Slavery Bill H.R. 5741". I don't agree with Liberty, but hold no animosity and apologize if he took my response as crabby. It wasn't directed specifically at him, but more to the overall tone of this thread and where it was going.

I respect everyone's opinion here, and appreciate hearing different viewpoints. Sometimes, we'll have to agree to disagree.
It saddens me to see the lack of responsibility and entitlement mentality of todays youth. I feel military service would be good for them and good for the country.

I think you'll find that many of us who have served, are a little passionate about duty, honor and courage.