If you want to join the Taliban but don't have the guts

[wninja]

You know those taliban and terrorists that use videogames for training probably think they're slick, but I'm pretty sure 90% of our boys in blue and green grew up playing these "violent" videogames too.

[dcphoto]

You're in an unfair fight. I've built space and military simulators (Space Station, Space Shuttle, F-16, F-22, Military Kinematics scripting and animation, and 3D military model interoperation code), along with working in the video game industry (first at Microsoft, now at NVIDIA, which probably explains why I'm so passionate about this topic ). I know about all the links you've referenced. There's two facets that you're attempting to cite:
1) Video games (like Amreica's Army) that are being used as _recruiting_ tools. They expose the player to approximations of the hardware they will use if they join the Army, but that's the extent. I'm sure you'll agree that shooting an M-16 in the game does nothing to prepare you for the mechanics and knowledge needed for a real M-16. These games are designed to appeal to the _image_ of being a soldier and the esprit de corps (the fact that you can tell when you're actually playing with active duty soldiers is a particularly strong recruiting mechanism, as it strengthens the social ties as you accomplish goals together)
2) Low and High-fidelity training simulations. These are effective for specific training scenarios, and work best when designed for specific purposes. Often they are designed to teach the reinforced motor skills that a person needs in a high stress scenario. I built an F16 simulator that had massive dome projectors in low fidelity with high fidelity insets for dogfighting. Not ONCE did a pilot come back from combat and say it was like the real thing, because we can't simulate high-G stresses or all the loopy things that happen as you jink around. What we _could_ do is get them to understand the reaction, button-pressing, alert recognition, etc. that all pilots must instinctively know. Calling these things a "video game" makes no sense.

You've expounded what I've said nicely. Video games are used as training aids. The goal of AA was (initially) recruitment, but it was still training potential recruits to understand a small segment of the equipment and mission they might undertake as a soldier. Take away the millions of dollars invested in that F16 simulator, and (no offense) it's just a fancy video game that's been designed to train pilots to react to stimuli in a particular way. That's great! The difference is that the pilots have a specific goal to learn the motor skills needed to operate a complex aircraft in a high stress environment. In addition to that specific goal they have an instructor to help guide them towards that goal.

Without those goals, and without the instructor (parent) you have no control over what a video gamer does and does not learn. If that gamer is young and impressionable, then you have no way of knowing what they've learned, good or bad.

The problem I have is that the media (and certain congresscritters) are equivocating video games to a) inciting terrorist/criminal behavior and b) useful as a training aid. They are neither, nor can be. They are _games_.

I have to agree. Games don't/can't incite terrorist/criminal behavior. However, by your own admission (although you don't equate them to games) computer simulations are useful as training aids. I'd like to put this another way, but please understand I'm not trying to minimize your hard work and passion towards the simulators you've designed. If you take the military pilot out of that F16 simulator, and put a 12 year old in his place with no flight training goals, that simulator is just a game. That game can teach that kid (inadvertently, through trial and error) how to fly an airplane. I don't think you can dispute that. Why can't you make the connection? True, an xbox game won't teach with the kind of precision a purpose built simulator can, but learning can still take place.

[jester]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Dave Grossman yet.

[Hoi Polloi]

Think video games are bad? Ok, let them watch TV instead: Cops, WWE, CSI, whatever. Block their TV? Let them listen to some rap music or certain types of hard rock. Take away their music? Let them read "illustrated novels" or comics...the list goes on and on.

And if you limit your child's exposure to these, choosing instead to provide from the wealth of movies, books, board games, video games, folk games, outside play, natural exploration, children's games, music, handwork, etc that is considered "good old fashioned fun" then you're labeled as crazy or worse.

But dress your 4 year old girl in a mini skirt, belly-baring tied up blouse, and slather her in make-up as she sings along to Disco Stick and it's just precious.

Our society is schizophrenic. Reviving Ophelia, Real Boys, and Pledged were interesting books. I didn't agree with everything they said, but they showed how crazy our popular culture is, and how it is creating crazy people.

[nitrogen]

I always thought it was strange that we have no problem if our kids see violence on TV or video games, but we all go bonkers if our kids see a sexual act or a bare breast.

Just had to throw that out there.

[Hoi Polloi]

I always thought it was strange that we have no problem if our kids see violence on TV or video games, but we all go bonkers if our kids see a sexual act or a bare breast.

Just had to throw that out there.

Ha ha ha. In my circle of friends, the opposite is largely true.

[karl]

If you want to join the Taliban but don't have the guts.
It keeps nagging at you night and day. Enough to drive you nuts.
Don't leave the house. Just click your mouse. It's time you made a stand.
For a fee, you too can be, virtual Taliban.

mujahidin, done dirt cheap

That was awesome. I thought of AC/DC when I saw this post too.

[UpTheIrons]

FWIW, here's a game blog's interview of nine soldiers who were asked about the game. Responses vary from "How awful! How could they?!" to "Meh."
http://gamrfeed.vgchartz.com/story/8156 ... an-in-moh/

<sarcasm>
Of course, since the game is rated "M", I'm sure parents everywhere will protect their precious snowflakes from this evil scourge.
</sarcasm>

I've refrained from the discussion so far, since what I believe has been stated much better by others. I also pre-screen the games my kids want to play, and never play and M-rated games when they are around.

Speaking anecdotally, I was at GameSpot a couple of years ago, and a mom and kid (10-12ish) come in. Kid wants the newest Grand Theft Auto. Counter Guy says "Yeah, this is rated M. The ratings box says it contains violence, sexuality, and language. Would you like a copy?" I literally thought the head was going to come off the kid's shoulders. Mom smacked him one and said "You want THIS? No! We're leaving!" After they left, Counter Guy looks at me and smirks, "I love it when that happens." That's the only time I've seen that happen, though. Usually it is "SureJimmywhateveryouwantI'monthephonewithmybestfriendrightnow."

[OldCannon]

Speaking anecdotally, I was at GameSpot a couple of years ago, and a mom and kid (10-12ish) come in. Kid wants the newest Grand Theft Auto. Counter Guy says "Yeah, this is rated M. The ratings box says it contains violence, sexuality, and language. Would you like a copy?" I literally thought the head was going to come off the kid's shoulders. Mom smacked him one and said "You want THIS? No! We're leaving!" After they left, Counter Guy looks at me and smirks, "I love it when that happens." That's the only time I've seen that happen, though. Usually it is "SureJimmywhateveryouwantI'monthephonewithmybestfriendrightnow."

Yes, it's massively frustrating that many parents don't bother with the ESRB ratings (or PEGI in the EU, etc.). On my end though, I find it more offensive when governments step in and try to be the nanny and block the sale of these kind of games (or be like San Francisco, who now bans the appearance of guns in any form on a movie poster even!)

[Purplehood]

A lot of "games" these days could be used (and ARE!) as training aids.

Totally disagree with that one. Ask any kid or adult who has played any of the "Need for Speed" series if it's anything like real driving - especially kids on learner's permits. Healthy kids have a pretty good handle on what's real and what's not ... they're not turning into Mario, or Sonic, or really driving the cars they jazz up, or keeping all the "shiny stuff" they earn in WoW.

This sounds a lot like the position I heard when I was in college about how playing Dungeons and Dragons was going to desensitize us to violence and make us all anti-social nerd-zombies, because we were swinging swords and lopping off heads and fighting the un-dead and such inside the game. Yes, a few already-shaky-kilter kids did go off the deep end and not come back - but most of us looked up, said, "oh crud, I have class in 20 minutes", and went back to the real world without causing +6 damage to anyone along the way to the Chemistry building.

OMG, did you just dredge up an old memory!

When I was at my first Marine duty-station (MCAS El Toro, CA), my buddies and I decided to form a Dungeons & Dragons gaming group.

Yes, there are nerds in the Marine Corps.

Since we wanted access to official facilities and recognition to use MWR funding, we had to go through an entire approval process. I filled out this huge package of paperwork and waited for a reply from the Base Commanding Officer. Weeks later I get a letter telling me to report to the Base Medical Officer for a psychological screening.
It turns out that the CO wanted the Medical Officer to sign-off that the group of D&D players had as the Doctor stated, "No intention of running out on the flightline and hijacking an A-4 in the belief that we were slaying a Dragon".
Our little club was approved.

[OldCannon]

Yes, there are nerds in the Marine Corps.

Nice. That's +5 in Semper Fi Dexterity

It turns out that the CO wanted the Medical Officer to sign-off that the group of D&D players had as the Doctor stated, "No intention of running out on the flightline and hijacking an A-4 in the belief that we were slaying a Dragon".
Our little club was approved.

Oh lordy...I flew recon out of Shemya Island in the first half of my military career. If I told you the things we did out on the flight line or in the alert hangar, they'd lock me (and my crewmates) up and throw away the keys, and have all future air crew members trot by our jail cells saying, "See? THIS is what happens when you do naughty things to other people's planes. The Navy has told us to even keep their bones incarcerated here!"

[Yankee Girl]

It turns out that the CO wanted the Medical Officer to sign-off that the group of D&D players had as the Doctor stated, "No intention of running out on the flightline and hijacking an A-4 in the belief that we were slaying a Dragon".
Our little club was approved.

Yeah, A-4s don't look anything like dragons ... now if there was an F-14 around someplace, THAT could look like a dragon.

[Fangs]

I used to have to get my 18+ friends to buy me another copy of Diablo II when my CD keys would get blocked for botting. See, and now I'm all grown up and slaying demons... wait, what?

I've always wondered, if violent video games cause violent acts, why didn't my snowboarding game make me a snowboarding fiend?

The only people I've ever encountered who couldn't see a clear, distinct line between fantasy games and reality were the ones who didn't play the games and had no idea what they were talking about.

Granted, I'll admit that ideas have consequences, just as a story of a guy who killed hookers and blew up cars could plant a seed of gangsterism in a young kid's mind, so could Grand Theft Auto. But life doesn't have cheat codes and fighting the National Guard hurts.

[Hoi Polloi]

Interestingly, video game manufacturers are trying to convince the public that they don't only provide a virtual reality but are reality. Look at the Wii games--fitness, workout, yoga, golf, ping-pong, etc. They want you to think those are the same as the real thing while saying the opposite on the violent games.

[OldCannon]

Interestingly, video game manufacturers are trying to convince the public that they don't only provide a virtual reality but are reality. Look at the Wii games--fitness, workout, yoga, golf, ping-pong, etc. They want you to think those are the same as the real thing while saying the opposite on the violent games.

Let's be careful about tossing the "they" around. The game industry is made up of a variety of publishers, studios, and independent developers who create things to entertain. While it's true that new devices like the Wii controller or the Xbox Kinect open up new and interesting ways to interact with games AND socialize with others, we should have praise for publishers offering us new ways to laugh and play with our kids, friends, and relatives on those rainy days (or scorchingly hot days ). Is "Rock Band" reality, or does it teach you about rhythm and eye-hand coordination while enjoying music that you like? I've never heard anybody from Harmonix try to tell people that playing Rock Band _is_ reality, but it is crazy fun. I know people that play Rock Band with me (my wife) who would NEVER bother picking up a controller and joining me in Halo or Modern Warfare. I know more than a few women who are absolutely brutal "first person shooter" gamers. Their in-game personalities are viscous, hardcore killers that would drop you dead before you even knew they were near, and they would gleefully "talk smack" over your twisted body in the game. In real life: Housewives, church-goers, moms, even grandmothers!

Lumping games together again misses the point that at their core; they are forms of entertainment.