School Carry - Need answer quick

[troglodyte]

Under 46.03 a person may carry with permission from the school. Understood,

Under 46.035 CHL holder may not carry to interscholastic, etc. event.

How does permission to carry under the general statute of 46.03 affect carry, with permission, under 46.035?

Need answer asap.

[lonewolf]

My understanding is that you can carry on the grounds, but not in a building. If going to an event, regardless of location, say a school play, fundraiser, ball game, etc, you may not carry. Leave it in the car/truck.

You can carry in the school parking lot, but not in a building (for example, to pick up child from school.)

IANAL

What are your specific circumstances?

[troglodyte]

Not at liberty to say at this moment.

The question is, if granted permission under 46.03 by the school powers, does that include 46.035

I am well aware of the off-limits etc.

[lonewolf]

My bad, and my apologies for not fully understanding the original question.....

My biggest concern would be the legality of the authorizing person(s) entity to give such permission. Would it stand up in a court? Why not simply have law enforcement handle whatever might be the concern?

Good luck to you!

[troglodyte]

Sorry to be so cryptic but I am not at liberty to say anymore than I just have to.

IF a school board grants some or all CHLs permission to carry as stated under 46.03 Places Weapons Prohibited (physical premise of a school, etc...."unless puruant to written regs or written authorization of the institution"), does this permission also allow carry under 46.035 Unlawful carry by CHL (...premise where HS, Collegiate, or Pro sporting event or interscholastic event...)? Even if it does I would figure it would not carry over to another campus as they did not grant the permission.

46.035 is more specific but if a school has granted permission does this permission supercede? OR does 46.035 impart further limitations.

On one hand a non-CHL holder could be granted permission to carry a firearm and there are no restrictions further than what is addressed in 46.03. So it makes some kind of sense that a CHL holder should be granted the same liberty.

On the other hand section 46.035 seems to be written to provide limitations in the event competetive events are held at some site other than a school, i.e. civic center.

This may be an effort in academics but I need to find some kind of legal stand point on this of at least as close as we can get. It may not be needed immediately anymore but it will be something that I will need to revisit at a later date.

[dicion]

AFAIK, No, Permission given by a school does not include any places under 46.035. These places are never permissible, under any circumstances, there is no exceptions to them listed for a CHL.

That being said, 46.035 only applies to Handguns. With permission of a school, you could carry a long gun (even concealed) to the above mentioned game.

If you did get said authorization as required in 46.03, I'd get it signed, notarized, and a drop of the person's blood who signed it, on it , and carry a copy with me at all times I was on the property.

[Shasta]

IANAL, but I am assuming something like a football game, a UIL event, etc.

I would tread VERY carefully, and IMO there's no way to obtain such permission, particularly in a "quick" situation, so you're basically left with the following choices:
1. observe the event as a no carry situation, or
2. knowingly bring your concealed handgun into a situation where it is prohibited, choosing to face the consequences if discovered or
3. keep yourself and your child out of the situation completely, or
4. alerting law enforcement if there has been a specific threat voiced.

[KFP]

I think this is one of the most interesting questions that I've see on here in awhile.

AFAIK, No, Permission given by a school does not include any places under 46.035. These places are never permissible, under any circumstances, hence why they are in their own section.

That being said, 46.035 only applies to Handguns. With permission of a school, you could carry a long gun (even concealed) to the above mentioned game.

I don't necessarily disagree, but do see validity in the belief that written permission could supersede the locations being statutorily off limits. A violation under 46.03 (a)(1) is a third degree felony without written permission. A violation under 46.035(b)(2) is a Class A misdemeanor. Locations listed under 46.03 are more general than those under 46.035, which also allows handguns if they are part of the event.

The argument loses or gains steam depending on:
1) Exactly what dicion mentions.
2) Does a general blanket statement cover the specific activities, or does the specified activity take precedence?
3) Does it matter that you have been granted "permission" to violate felony grade law in one instance, but not a lesser offense in the other?

I'm far from a lawyer, but appreciate this question and the arguments both for and against. If I had a dog in this fight, I'd want the best lawyer possible. Now I'll sit back and prepare to learn...

[shootthesheet]

We need to do away with these restrictions.

[troglodyte]

The "quick" was not me running out the door to carry at the football game. The "quick" was for information needed asap for an individual that might have some pull concerning the granting of permission . That window has passed for the moment so I can discuss at more length if not specific details.

You'll have to trust me on this one. If, IF, IF, anything comes of this it will all be above board and signed, sealed, and delivered all prim and proper. I may be dumb but I'm not stupid.

Hopefully you can understand why I don't want to divulge much information or specifics. There are a few on the boards that know who I am and who might/will put the pieces together. I just trust they keep their mouths closed...at least until I get a chance to talk with them. I obey the law and will not tempt legal trouble.

For the record, I am just providing information in the event the unlikely three-legged, glue-on-the-hoof, longshot stumbles out of the gate. Even then it is a long, long race.

My take, as humble as it may be, is that 46.035 specifically bans CHLs from the stated events because these events could be held at a venue that is otherwise legal for a CHL to carry at under the normal laws i.e. civic center or public gym. It seems to be put in there because most "school" events are held in school buildings, premises, and so they would normally be off limits to all (46.03) but there are some exceptions. It could also take into effect that many athletic fields are not in a "building" so a premise does not physically exist. Therefore a statute had to be put in to include "open" playing fields (let's not get started on if the field is fenced if it then becomes a premise). Of course the word "premise" is still in there so we may indeed need to beg the question if a fenced (or unfenced) athletic field is a premise. Does a line of chalk on the field constitute a threshold? And does it matter that it is grouped in with interscholastic (between two schools) event and/or professional sports? (unless a handgun is used...indoor track meet maybe?)*

Now if the school is hosting a football game (for example) at their own field and a CHL has permission to otherwise carry on, and in, the same campus then should/would they also be allowed to carry into the field (or surrounding area) of play? I'm not even assuming for an away game because that is not the issuing school 's field so the issuing school can't say yea or nay. If you are on your home campus then I think 46.03 should supercede 46.035. It wouldn't necessarily off your campus because your are on someone else's (or not your own) property under a different "jurisdiction"....maybe.

But this is my humble thinking, which ain't worth squat.

I understand that most of us are not lawyers, like that has ever stopped us, and this is very uncharted territory, but it may become an issue either in my situation or some other school's in the near future. I was a little blindsided by the question and I don't like that so maybe we can get ahead of what little curve (and hope) there may be.

Sometimes I think they write the laws vaguely specific (or would that be specifically vague?) on purpose just to confuse us enough that we cow to the least common denominator and limit ourselves when it might be perfectly legal. What do I know?

*Actually something similar has come up from time to time. The ol' "what if a school group comes to the zoo while I'm carrying?" threads. Good to go I say. 1st the open part of the zoo is not a premise ("building or portion of a building") and 2nd it is not an interscholastic group (interscholastic refers to a competition or event between schools. M-W.com "existing or carried on between schools" ). Being part of the school group (or not) doesn't even come into play...but that is a whole different discussion.

[A-R]

troglodyte, I think I see where you're going with this. I agree that 46.035 would seem to be strict NO CARRY without exception. But let me suggest this ....

*IANAL*
if the miracle of miracles happens and you get permission from the necessary parties at a school, perhaps - if the town is small enough etc - also get written permission from the head law enforcement officer/agency for this same area - head of the school police department, head of the town police, county sheriff whatever the case may be. You may in fact still be technically breaking the law, but if all of the people with jurisdiciton to arrest you for that offense all said "go ahead, no problem" then who's going to arrest you for it? Obviously, getting all these folks to agree on same thing will be about as easy herding cats, but it might be the only practical way to ensure you're not arrested for violation of 46.035 ....

Anyway, I for one would be very interested to hear if you succeed in what I think you're planning and wish you the best of luck in your endeavor

[dicion]

*Actually something similar has come up from time to time. The ol' "what if a school group comes to the zoo while I'm carrying?" threads. Good to go I say. 1st the open part of the zoo is not a premise ("building or portion of a building") and 2nd it is not an interscholastic group (interscholastic refers to a competition or event between schools. M-W.com "existing or carried on between schools" ). Being part of the school group (or not) doesn't even come into play...but that is a whole different discussion.

Actually, this has been explained by Charles himself:

http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 08#p287208" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Basically, unless it is school property, the 'school sponsored event' restriction doesn't apply. So yes, a zoo, a museum, etc, are all 'good to go' even if there's eleventy billion kids there on field trip, because it's not 'school property'.
Now, your Football Game IS on school property, so it Would still apply.

austinrealtor, I agree with what you say, in theory, sort of like the current 'Gun Shop/Pawn Shop Employee' exception that's pretty gray (can every employee be 'in control of the premises' simultaneously?), if no one complains, no one will get arrested. However, in the case of the Gun shop employee, no one cares if someone's carrying a gun, in a gun shop. In the case of a school, I'm pretty sure lots of people would make a ruckus if it somehow became exposed.

I am of the opinion that a school can only grant an exception to 46.03, not 46.035.

Lets look at it this way. Another place you cannot carry, under 46.035:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

Now, can a 51% business a CHL customer permission, in writing to carry there? No, because the fact that it is a 51% location makes it illegal to carry. Plain and simple. The Location is not granted permission to give an exception in the statute, so that ability does not exist.

[RPB]

I was going to post that you should contact the Texas School District who allows CHLs to carry, Harrold school district, http://harroldisd.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; since I bet they have events such as ball games etc ...

but Charles already gave a better answer
http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 08#p287208" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I read what Charles says, my layman's guess is ... and I may be wrong, if a school holds a "home" game on property they own, you might be OK? However no school could grant permission on property they do not own, (non-owned ballpark, or away game)

I'm just guessin' ... and I could be wrong ... I was once.

IANAL

[RPB]

That being said, 46.035 only applies to Handguns. With permission of a school, you could carry a long gun (even concealed) to the above mentioned game.

I'd have to recommend against carrying an AK-47 to a campus any time soon, even with permission.
(I'm not saying this to be funny, but vaguely referencing the UT incident this morning.... people are nervous creatures.)