Unintended consequences of ending the non-res loophole

[jamisjockey]

Just what the title says:
I just had a thought. Yes, it hurt a bit.
I know some here, and in the state house, don't like the fact that there is a "loophole" where you can get a non resident permit and bypass the Texas CHL requirements. Utah being the most popular it seems.
In my situation, I moved to Texas with a Utah permit. This is a permanant move, so barring any unforseen circumstances I'll die a Texan. I essentially established residency within about 30 days of moving here. New Driver's license, bills and utitlities in my name and Texas address.
However, in the time between the move, taking the CHL class, and eventually getting the plastic....ending the "loophole" would have left me unprotected.
Personally, I don't support closing the loophole. I'm a second amendment absolutist. I know that not everyone supports that position. I also know that many in the state house and senate would not support that position.
Anyways, just food for thought. Maybe a new resident exemption of 12 months to give new Texans time to get settled in and take the class, plus receive their plastic.

[olafpfj]

I can't remember what state's site I read this on but it stated that their non-resident permit was intended for people who lived in states where permits were not available. California residents for example. Just because you can't (in practice anyway) obtain a permit in California, that should not preclude you from being able to carry in states that do allow carry. It seemed to suggest that if you can obtain a permit from your resident state then that is the path you are supposed to take. I am pretty much a constituitional carry advocate but I don't like how people are playing fast and loose with the intentions of the law. Its something the anti's do and I think it sets a bad precedent if we play these kinds of games. We need to always take the high road and not give them any ammunition. The non-resident permits from Florida and Utah are technically being abused, like Texans getting the Utah permit to pay less and avoid shooting. Its a non issue to me except that its providing fodder for the anti's and putting the carry movement on the radar in the wrong way. I do, however, agree that there should be a grace period if you move to obtain your new states permit. They do that with car insurance, drivers license and everything else so why not your carry permit.

[The Annoyed Man]

You could have probably converted your resident CFP to a non-resident CFP pretty easily and cheaply. I would describe myself as a 2nd Amendment absolutist who is a realist - which some absolutists are not.

aaaaaaanyway....

I have the non-res CFP, but I only got it after I got my CHL, and I'm glad I did it that way. But if I were you, I would have tried to convert my resident CFP to a non-resident CFP as a stopgap pending the obtaining of my CHL. But that's just me. I don't agree that people should get a CFP if they don't qualify for a CHL, just on general principle. I don't like cheaters.

[Crossfire]

Utah does not distinguish between resident and non-resident CFPs. They only offer one permit, good no matter whether you live in state, or out. They don't even care whether you carry a revolver or semi-auto. Gotta love 'em.

[The Annoyed Man]

Utah does not distinguish between resident and non-resident CFPs. They only offer one permit, good no matter whether you live in state, or out. They don't even care whether you carry a revolver or semi-auto. Gotta love 'em.

Better yet. Was that the case in 2002 when the OP moved here?

(In the interest of disclosure: I should mention that I got my CFP from Crossfire Training. )

[jamisjockey]

For clarification:
I lived in Texas from '97-'01. Moved to Utah April '01 and got the CFP in Sept of 2001 (Getting forgetful in my old age..... Just double checked my CFP, my first renewal was 9/11/06...next renewal 9/11/11). Left Utah january of '07 and moved to Virginia. VA is an open carry state, and recognizes the UT permit for concealed carry. I brushed up on the laws and carried under my UT permit. I moved back to Texas May of this year ('10).

I agree that Texas residents who obtain the CFP without the Texas CHL are skirting the intent of the Texas CHL laws. However, ignorance of the Texas laws is no defense. If you get caught carrying inapporpriately, be prepared to pay the consequences.

What I'm suggesting is that as the conversation about the loophole expands, part of that conversation should be how to handle new residents in possesion of an out of state permit. Its not like the process is immediate. You get full faith and credit to drive under your out-of-state Driver's license until you can establish residence and get your butt down to DMV to get the new license.
Shut down the ability for Texas residents to carry under an out of state permit, and you risk hanging new residents out to dry.

[Tamie]

If being delinquent in taxes is a good enough reason to deny a computer programmer who lives in Houston the right to bear arms in Texas, then it's also a good enough reason to deny an accountant who lives in Brooklyn the right to bear arms in Texas. It's also good enough reason to deny/revoke the peace officer license of a Tarrant County deputy, and the commission of an armed security guard who lives in San Antonio.

Having different standards is cheating, and I don't like cheaters.

[WildBill]

Maybe I am being too picky, but IMO a "loophole" in a law is something that was done intentionally to protect or shield a particular group of people. I don't think that this is the case with the CHL laws.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I don't recall anyone posting that they want current law changed regarding out-of-state licenses. I certainly don't want to see a change. There are legitimate reasons for Texas residents to get a Utah CFP, not the least of which is gaining reciprocity with Ohio and Washington State. My posts and those of several other Members deal with the very real threat that a change is coming.

Everything I have posted has been motivated by a desire to put pressure on the Utah instructors who are advertising irresponsibly. In my earlier posts on this issue, I stated that I don't want to see a change in Texas law; I want to see instructors police ourselves and stop the harmful advertising practices.

Chas.

[gwashorn]

I don't recall anyone posting that they want current law changed regarding out-of-state licenses. I certainly don't want to see a change. There are legitimate reasons for Texas residents to get a Utah CFP, not the least of which is gaining reciprocity with Ohio and Washington State. My posts and those of several other Members deal with the very real threat that a change is coming.

Everything I have posted has been motivated by a desire to put pressure on the Utah instructors who are advertising irresponsibly. In my earlier posts on this issue, I stated that I don't want to see a change in Texas law; I want to see instructors police ourselves and stop the harmful advertising practices.

Chas.

What Charles said.

Gary

[texasjeep44]

If folks are getting their Utah permits because they don't want to spend the time in class to learn Texas law, or can't pass the proficiency portion of Texas test or are simply trying to save a few bucks I have serious problems with that.

I want folks who live here to know what Texas laws are and be able to shoot straight if they need to use their gun for defensive purposes.

If someone is getting the Utah permit to increase the number of states they can legally carry in I have no problem with that.

One thing I do find kind of ironic is Florida non resident permits are pushed pretty hard, yet Florida doesn't recognize non resident permits from other states. Seems they have a double standard created for themselves.

Taking the easy way is never a good idea in my opinion. Obtaining a carry permit should be a start with continued training and increased knowledge of laws for both your state and other states which you visit. I fear that folks who are taking the easy way to get a permit aren't going to put much emphasis on improving their skills or knowledge either.

[cbr600]

If folks are getting their Utah permits because they don't want to spend the time in class to learn Texas law, or can't pass the proficiency portion of Texas test or are simply trying to save a few bucks I have serious problems with that.

How do you feel about folks using MPA to carry because they don't want to spend the time in class to learn Texas law, or can't pass the proficiency portion of Texas test or are simply trying to save a few bucks?

[PappaGun]

...Taking the easy way is never a good idea in my opinion...

Like driving a Jeep instead of a Range Rover?

[texasjeep44]

...Taking the easy way is never a good idea in my opinion...

Like driving a Jeep instead of a Range Rover?

I think your mistaken. The Range Rovers are always on the easy trails because the owners are scared to get them dirty or scratching skid plates.

[texasjeep44]

If folks are getting their Utah permits because they don't want to spend the time in class to learn Texas law, or can't pass the proficiency portion of Texas test or are simply trying to save a few bucks I have serious problems with that.

How do you feel about folks using MPA to carry because they don't want to spend the time in class to learn Texas law, or can't pass the proficiency portion of Texas test or are simply trying to save a few bucks?

You certainly can't equate carrying under MPA to having a CHL permit.

If they choose to carry in the limited places of their auto, home or property under their control fine. That isn't what the OP asked about, the question was about non resident permits, and those people who choose to get those instead of a Texas permit. MPA carry requires no action or effort of the person, the non resident permit requires acton and effort, but quite possibly less than what it would take to get the Texas permit with nothing learned about Texas law.

If your living in Texas, the laws of Utah, Florida or any other state really don't do you any good on a daily basis.

That is exactly the reason at the end of my classes I hand out a packet that includes the laws and such for AR, LA and OK. Being that within 30 minutes or less we can be in any of those states it is good for the people to know the differences between those states and Texas law. Where we live it is very important. I don't hand out laws for UT, FL, PA, NM, or places that they have to actually travel to get to.