Come on Katy, you didn't just equate bringing in a legal firearm to illegal narcotics did you???Katygunnut wrote:then you are implicitly inviting the 8 ball of blow that they are bringing with them as well?

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Come on Katy, you didn't just equate bringing in a legal firearm to illegal narcotics did you???Katygunnut wrote:then you are implicitly inviting the 8 ball of blow that they are bringing with them as well?
Katygunnut wrote:So if you invite someone into your house, then you are implicitly inviting the 8 ball of blow that they are bringing with them as well? Some people find guns just as offensive as drugs.zaroffhunts wrote:If someone invites me into their home, they implicitly invite everything I'm wearing and carrying. If they don't allow handguns or car keys or cell phones or boxer shorts, it's up to them to explicitly say so. If their conditions are unacceptable, I won't accept their invitiation, and everyone gets what they wanted.
But the coke is illegal (and possibly immoral, depending on your outlook), while your licensed carry of a concealed firearm is not at all illegal or immoral.Katygunnut wrote:So if you invite someone into your house, then you are implicitly inviting the 8 ball of blow that they are bringing with them as well? Some people find guns just as offensive as drugs.zaroffhunts wrote:If someone invites me into their home, they implicitly invite everything I'm wearing and carrying. If they don't allow handguns or car keys or cell phones or boxer shorts, it's up to them to explicitly say so. If their conditions are unacceptable, I won't accept their invitiation, and everyone gets what they wanted.
Allow me to draw an analogy.... A knife is very much a deadly weapon. Let's say that the homeowner has a problem with knives... Are you going to alert them to the fact that you have a pocket folder in your pocket and ask their permission to enter the home with it? If not, why not? How would you know about this aversion unless A) he/she declares an aversion to knives, or B) you ask him/her if they have an aversion to knives. Along a similar line, if properly held, I can put your eyes out beyond all repair with my car keys. Should I ask if it is OK to bring my keys into the house? I'm not trying to be disrespectful of your point, but I am trying to point out that the problem isn't the gun/knife/keys. The problem is the intent of the person in possession of those items. In your case, you have to out yourself to have the homeowner's answer, unless extensive conversations over time have previously revealed the other person's sentiments to you. Advance knowledge is not always feasible, and I recommend against outing yourself to get the answer you're looking for, because if the answer isn't favorable, you can bet your bottom dollar that within 24 hours, ALL of that person's circle of friends are going to know that you carry a gun. Not cool.Katygunnut wrote:I'll admit that my example was a stretch because drugs are (currently and in most locations) illegal, while the carrying of concealed firearms is (currently and in most locations) legal. However, to me it is more a matter of respecting someone's wishes while I am a visitor in their home. As much as I hate it, some people are very much against having firearms in their home. I disagree with this stance, but I respect their right to their belief. More importantly, I respect their right to dictate acceptable behavior and conduct in their home. I expect the same courtesy from anyone who visits my home.
Doesn't apply. You can't open carry in Texas.Katygunnut wrote:Let me use another example. If I was invited to the house of an acquaintance who I knew to be a liberal, I would probably refrain from wearing an "I hate Obama" T-shirt. Yes, I have the right to my freedom of expression, but just because I have the right to do it does not mean that it is the right thing to do.
It's admirable that you want to be respectful of others' sensibilities; I just think you're asking for more trouble than you had bargained on. And, things cut both ways. By not allowing you into their home armed - with the implication that they cannot protect you while you are there - it is not particularly respectful of your sensibilities. Do they serve meat to people they know to be vegetarians? I would keep better friends than that... but that's just me.Katygunnut wrote:I am not ambivalent about my right to carry. I carry everywhere I am legally able to do so. If I was invited to someone's house and I had reason to believe that they might not want a gun in their home, I would discuss it with the home owner if I was unsure, or thought I could change their mind. If I was fairly certain that they were against guns, I would politely decline the invitation and possibly invite them to my house instead (depending on the circumstances). I would not necessarily need to "out" myself as a CCW holder in doing this. Watching their reaction to my telling them about my last range outing would probably do the trick.
Again, you're just asking for trouble. Do all the right things. Secure the guns. Then let it go. You are under no moral obligation to inform them. Would you also inform them that you've installed child-proofing outlet plugs in all your electrical outlets to keep their little Johnny from sticking a fork into a wall socket?Katygunnut wrote:By the same token, I think it is important for the parents of my kids friends to know that I have guns in the house (properly secured, of course). I consider it common courtesy to give them the opportunity to choose not to have their kids anywhere near guns if they are uncomfortable with the idea.
QFTdicion wrote:How about, don't invite people into your home that you don't trust?
But, most non-gun people are not going to see it that way and we are not going to convince them of that in the minutes after we are outed or during the conversation where we are requesting consent before entering their property.The Annoyed Man wrote:... the problem isn't the gun/knife/keys. The problem is the intent of the person in possession of those items
I feel the same way about cell phones. Turn off the ringer and keep it concealed, or take it outside.MechAg94 wrote:If it were my home and you carry without letting me know, you better darn well keep it concealed. If I see it or you decide to pull it out to show someone, I would be upset that you didn't ask permission. I can live with concealed guns, but I don't want anyone handling them in my home without my supervision.
Well, you shouldn't have to, that opinion is factually incorrect!terryg wrote: ... Just because I do not put much value in the commonly held opinion that guns are inherently dangerous ...
Terry, as usual, you require me to respond with more than a simplistic answer. That's a good thing. My first response to the idea that such answers are cold is this: every relationship has two partners to it, and the responsibility for the health of that relationship is mutual. I am all about relationships. I don't have tons and tons of friends, but the people I do call "friend" are very dear to me and those relationships are important to me. That said, friendship is an expression of a degree and kind of love, and there are different levels of that relationship sentiment.terryg wrote:On a personal level, I found these positions to be somewhat cold. Just because I do not put much value in the commonly held opinion that guns are inherently dangerous does not mean that I do not value existing relationships with many people who hold those views. TAM is absolutely right that:But, most non-gun people are not going to see it that way and we are not going to convince them of that in the minutes after we are outed or during the conversation where we are requesting consent before entering their property.The Annoyed Man wrote:... the problem isn't the gun/knife/keys. The problem is the intent of the person in possession of those items
That said, once these arguments were laid out for me, I realized that there was no easy answer.
Even if one is not a Christian, the first three categories of love still apply.Philia is the love between good friends. Philia is also called "platonic" love. Philia is a chosen love, because we choose whom we will befriend - usually on the basis of shared interests [emphasis mine]. Philia is more conditional and less sacrificial than storge. Philia is less willing to continually overlook faults and frequently forgive others.
And, as usual TAM, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this answer. I am going to respond in two parts to keep this digestible ...The Annoyed Man wrote:Terry, as usual, you require me to respond with more than a simplistic answer. That's a good thing.
But for me personally, that conclusion - the result, is still cold - regardless of how it is derived. Some come to it quickly by only considering the 'facts' while others come to it only after deeply considering the relationship and possible ramifications. I used your quote about the "gun/knife/keys" because it was in the current thread and was a recent reply - not intentionally to become the primary target of this conclusion. But it still applies: If we, for a moment, emphatically imagine that we held strong anti-gun sentiments, we would feel greatly offended and, indeed, threatened to learn that someone was carrying a loaded handgun into our home - or around our children. We would be 'aghast' that someone would have the gall to take this course of action without checking with us first.The Annoyed Man wrote:Terry, it's not that my answers are cold, it is that they have been well thought out over a largish number of years. That's the best answer I can give. I hope it helps you to understand my position better.
This thought saddens me to some degree but is the product of reducing the decision tree to possible outcomes. As the risk of discovery is fairly low, option 2 has a higher likelihood of producing a damaged relationship than option 3. And option 1 becomes less attractive to me the longer I carry regularly everywhere else.terryg wrote: 1. Not carry in these situations. You will not be discovered but could be very sorry.
2. Talk to these individuals and request permission to carry. This has the potential to have wildly varying outcomes.
3. Carry in secret in these situations. This should be ok, but if your outed it can go badly.
Thank you soooo much for posting this. It has helped me tremendously in understanding a particular relationship that has been the most troubling to my mind for the past few months. While the journey to CHL and regularly carrying has been going on in my mind for years - I only took action on this a few short months ago. I have had weapons for home defense for many years, well secured - but easy to access if needed. This has, to a large degree, led to a compartmentalization of this aspect of my life. Part of this was due to my wife's fear and hesitancy toward guns. I am sure if it was a hobby that she expressed an interest in, I would have picked up to this pace before now. But I have always liked guns in general and have believed in the right of citizens to protect themselves with guns. These general beliefs have not changed drastically.The Annoyed Man wrote:Here is a source with deeper explanations of what I mean by that: http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/co ... ngs/06.asp. Briefly, these are the categories...
Realistically, most real world friendships fall into the category of Philia. About Philia, the above linked website says:
- Storge, the love between family members
- Philia, the love between friends
- Eros, romantic love
- Agape, perfect Christian love
Even if one is not a Christian, the first three categories of love still apply.Philia is the love between good friends. Philia is also called "platonic" love. Philia is a chosen love, because we choose whom we will befriend - usually on the basis of shared interests [emphasis mine]. Philia is more conditional and less sacrificial than storge. Philia is less willing to continually overlook faults and frequently forgive others.
The point is that we choose our friends, and someone is not likely to be my friend unless we have shared, common interests. What that means is that, among my friends, there is a nearly 100% probability that they have no problems with my carrying a gun, my carrying a gun in their home, or with guns in general. I'm not saying that I can't be friends with someone who doesn't like guns, but it is extremely unlikely that I will be so.
So that leaves Storge love... the love of family members for one another. That love is sacrificial. Sacrificial presumes that one would willingly disarm to enter the home of a family member who hates guns. But sacrificial also means that the family member who hates guns would willingly allow you to enter their home armed. It is a relationship with two parties to it, and both parties have mutual obligations to it. What defines it as Storge is the extent to which either will overlook the shortcomings of the other for the sake of the relationship.
None of my friends (Philia) care about my being armed, so this is a non-issue in my life. Of my surviving immediate family members (Storge), my mother would ban guns from her home, but she lives 1500 miles away in a state where I cannot legally carry a firearm anyway. My non-gun owning brother wouldn't care, and my gun-owning brother would be tickled pink and want to see what I was carrying that day.