Double Edge skinner for carry?

[AustinMRH]

I understand the law of Texas says nothing too long, nothing too fast to open, and nothing with both edges sharpened, paraphrasing. So I'm going to ask, what about a skinner, with either a gut hook or a short serrated edge.

Specifically I was hoping to pick one of these up and modify it to be a utility/occasional carry knife:



6" total length with 2.5" blade. I don't run around doing stuff that is illegal and I certainly don't do things to get me noticed by the police. Much like my CCW if I have to use it, I have to use it. If I had to use this knife to defend myself, which is the only way I anticipate it ever being the concern of the police, then I will be more worried about protecting my life than an illegal knife charge.

So what do y'all think?

[tacticool]

If the back edge is sharpened, it looks like a good choice for someone who wants to make case law.

[WildBill]

What are you going to modify? The blade or the handle?

[flintknapper]

AustinMRH wrote:

I understand the law of Texas says nothing too long,

Yes, nothing over 5.5” (blade length) with some exceptions provided for knives used in activities such as hunting/camping/demonstrations/etc…

nothing too fast to open,

No such restriction.

and nothing with both edges sharpened

Correct.

So I'm going to ask, what about a skinner, with either a gut hook or a short serrated edge.

Both…technically illegal for everyday “carry”. (if both edges are sharpened)

6" total length with 2.5" blade. I don't run around doing stuff that is illegal and I certainly don't do things to get me noticed by the police

.
Well…I hate to be the one to point out the discrepancy….but if you choose to carry the knife you listed; you would indeed be (knowingly and willingly) “running around doing something illegal”.

Much like my CCW if I have to use it, I have to use it. If I had to use this knife to defend myself, which is the only way I anticipate it ever being the concern of the police, then I will be more worried about protecting my life than an illegal knife charge.

Why not just defend yourself with a knife legal to carry? The one you “linked” is not a particularly good “thrusting” knife (the main advantage of being double edged), so unless you are trained in edged weapons (back cutting), I guess I don’t see how it would benefit you.

So what do y'all think?

I think it is a patently bad idea……and can only be a source of trouble.

I apologize…if my reply sounds curt or shrill, I just hate to see you put yourself in jeopardy with a knife design that is unlikely to provide you any advantage over a legal one.

Flint

[cbucher]

I would find a good pocket knife personally.

[C-dub]

Regarding the speed of opening; I think you mean spring opening or push button opening like a switch-blade. Those are illegal, but not because of the speed. It's the mechanism.

[esxmarkc]

Regarding the speed of opening; I think you mean spring opening or push button opening like a switch-blade. Those are illegal, but not because of the speed. It's the mechanism.

Interestingly I was always taught as such and always believed it however I can never locate the statues. You have a link?

[NEB]

Here's the law:

(6) “Illegal Knife” means a:
(A) knife with a blade over five and one half inches;
Rainer v. State, 763 S.W.2d 615 (Tex. App.-Eastland 1989, pet. ref’d) To determine
length, measure entire length of blade past handle, not just the sharpened portion of the
blade. Same result in McMurrough v. State, 995 S.W.2d 944 (Tex. App.-Ft. Worth 1999).
(B) hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by being thrown;
Albert v. State, 659 S.W.2d 41 (Tex. App.-Houston [14th Dist.] 1983, pet. ref’d) Martial
arts throwing star qualifies as “a hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by being
thrown”.
(C) dagger including but not limited to a dirk, stiletto, and poniard;
Armendariz v. State, 396 S.W.2d 132 (Tex. Crim. App. 1965) A knife slightly over seven
inches in length when open, equipped with a double guard, blade that locks open and is
sharpened on both sides of blade for over an inch meets the definition of a dagger.
(D) bowie knife;
Mireles v. State, 192 S.W. 241 (Tex. Crim. App. 1917) A knife in a scabbard with a blade
nine inches long and a handle four or five inches long described as a butcher knife was
embraced in the term “bowie knife” as defined by the Penal Code.
(E) sword; or
(F) spear.
(7) “Knife” means any bladed hand instrument that is capable of inflicting serious
bodily injury or death by cutting or stabbing a person with the instrument.

(11) “Switchblade knife” means any knife that has a blade that folds, closes, or
retracts into the handle or sheath, and that:
(A) opens automatically by pressure applied to a button or other device
located on the handle; or
(B) opens or releases a blade from the handle or sheath by the force of
gravity or by the application of centrifugal force.
This definition includes a “butterfly knife”.



Here's a link:

http://ss.utpb.edu/media/files/universi ... N-LAWS.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've always thought the switch blade/gravity restriction was complete bull. I can get my perfectly legal spyderco out and into action faster than any hood can get their switchblade out. It's a law based COMPLETELY on perception and not reality.

--NEB

[flintknapper]

Regarding the speed of opening; I think you mean spring opening or push button opening like a switch-blade. Those are illegal, but not because of the speed. It's the mechanism.

Interestingly I was always taught as such and always believed it however I can never locate the statues. You have a link?

It has nothing to do with speed. Many knives can be opened quickly (as fast as a switchblade). For a time....there was some confusion over whether "assisted opening" knives constituted a switchblade...and a few poorly defended cases.....provided "case law" that did support that. But as of Sept 1st, 2009 HB 4456 became law and all of that was put to rest.

IMO, the laws in Texas regarding what is an illegal knife STILL need to be revisited, most are absurd.

[esxmarkc]

It has nothing to do with speed. Many knives can be opened quickly (as fast as a switchblade). For a time....there was some confusion over whether "assisted opening" knives constituted a switchblade...and a few poorly defended cases.....provided "case law" that did support that. But as of Sept 1st, 2009 HB 4456 became law and all of that was put to rest.

I still cant find it. Cut and paste a section?

[NEB]

See my previous post, section (11). Unless you're talking about something else?

--NEB

[esxmarkc]

See my previous post, section (11). Unless you're talking about something else?

Nope doggone it I missed your post somehow! Thank your sir. Been looking for that.

It also looks pretty iffy for those assisted opening knives. I suppose the real wording is that the button has to be ON THE HANDLE.

But given that I can open ANY folding knife made by ANYONE (it's only a matter of HOW MUCH centrifugal force I have to apply) the law as worded makes any folding knife you put in your pocket illegal.

[flintknapper]

"esxmarkc" wrote:

Nope doggone it I missed your post somehow! Thank your sir. Been looking for that

.
No mention of "speed"...so I don't know what you were looking for?

It also looks pretty iffy for those assisted opening knives. I suppose the real wording is that the button has to be ON THE HANDLE.

NO, not "iffy" at all, see my previous post, the law is clear:

A BILL TO BE ENTITLED
AN ACT
relating to the definition of a switchblade knife for purposes of
the offense of prohibited weapons.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:
SECTION 1. Section 46.01(11), Penal Code, is amended to
read as follows:
(11) "Switchblade knife" means any knife that has a
blade that folds, closes, or retracts into the handle or sheath[,]
and that[:
[(A)] opens automatically by pressure applied to
a button or other device located on the handle[;] or
[(B)] opens or releases a blade from the handle
or sheath by the force of gravity or by the application of
centrifugal force. The term does not include a knife that has a
spring, detent, or other mechanism designed to create a bias toward
closure and that requires exertion applied to the blade by hand,
wrist, or arm to overcome resistance and open the knife.
SECTION 2. The change in law made by this Act applies only
to an offense committed on or after the effective date of this Act.
An offense committed before the effective date of this Act is
covered by the law in effect when the offense was committed, and the
former law is continued in effect for that purpose. For purposes of
this section, an offense was committed before the effective date of
this Act if any element of the offense was occurred before that
date.

But given that I can open ANY folding knife made by ANYONE (it's only a matter of HOW MUCH centrifugal force I have to apply) the law as worded makes any folding knife you put in your pocket illegal.

This is why I have posted (many times) here that current laws regarding illegal knives STILL need to be revisited.

As currently written, knives simply "capable" of being opened (using special techniques..centrifugal force/gravity) are deemed illegal rather than requiring that knives "designed" to do so would be illegal.

[AustinMRH]

Interesting, in re reading the law I see nothing that makes a double edged blade illegal unless that blade also meets the qualifications of being a dagger.

(C) dagger including but not limited to a dirk, stiletto, and poniard;
Armendariz v. State, 396 S.W.2d 132 (Tex. Crim. App. 1965) A knife slightly over seven
inches in length when open, equipped with a double guard, blade that locks open and is
sharpened on both sides of blade for over an inch meets the definition of a dagger.

The lack of an OR implies that all of the conditions listed must be included to be considered a dagger. So your double edged boot knife if under seven inches in total length (though the measure of a 5.5" length from (A) would also apply) or if lacking a double guard would be legal. Also depending on the actual length of the serrated section it might not even qualify as a dagger should the and be ignored and replaced with an or.

I don't see this knife or any knife I carry as a first line of defense. This is primarily due to a lack of training and preparation. I see knives as tools and I see this design as being potentially useful. While the modification plans for the design simply included a skeleton cut job on the handle and a cord wrap, perhaps a grind to remove anything over 0.99" of extra edge would be in order.

[flintknapper]

Interesting, in re reading the law I see nothing that makes a double edged blade illegal unless that blade also meets the qualifications of being a dagger.

(C) dagger including but not limited to a dirk, stiletto, and poniard;
Armendariz v. State, 396 S.W.2d 132 (Tex. Crim. App. 1965) A knife slightly over seven
inches in length when open, equipped with a double guard, blade that locks open and is
sharpened on both sides of blade for over an inch meets the definition of a dagger.

The lack of an OR implies that all of the conditions listed must be included to be considered a dagger. So your double edged boot knife if under seven inches in total length (though the measure of a 5.5" length from (A) would also apply) or if lacking a double guard would be legal. Also depending on the actual length of the serrated section it might not even qualify as a dagger should the and be ignored and replaced with an or.

I don't see this knife or any knife I carry as a first line of defense. This is primarily due to a lack of training and preparation. I see knives as tools and I see this design as being potentially useful. While the modification plans for the design simply included a skeleton cut job on the handle and a cord wrap, perhaps a grind to remove anything over 0.99" of extra edge would be in order.

You have picked up some "case law" that NEB threw in there that does NOT appear in the written law:

46.02. Unlawful carrying
weapons. (a) A person commits an offense if intentionally,
knowingly , or recklessly carries on or about his person a
handgun, illegal knife, or club. [Exceptions: official;
actor was own premises; was traveling; engaged in lawful
hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity; security
guard].
- 46.01. Definitions. (1) "Club"... includes... (D)
Tomahawk...
(6) "Illegal knife" means a:
(A) knife with a blade over five and one-half inches;
(B) hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by
being thrown;
(C) dagger, including but not limited to a dirk, stiletto,
and poniard;
(D) sword; or
(E) spear.
(7) "Knife" means any bladed hand instrument that is capable
of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by cutting or
stabbing a person with the instrument.


What that means to you is: If you are stopped with a weapon that LEO perceive to be illegal you WILL get to hash it out before a judge. Case law...may work in your favor (or not) but in either case...you will find out through the process of the courts and become a statistic or additional case law. You will note too...that these judgements were made at the appeal level, so I hope you have deep pockets.

Your choice, but I advise against carrying anything that is double edged (false edges do not count) regardless of much of the blade is sharpened. Most LEO...don't know the fine points of the law (and certainly not case law), but they do know the basics (read...double edged).

If you remove the serrated portion of the knife you listed and then make the other modifications.....you will be fine.

Flint.