Church or School?

[Divided Attention]

I am needing to try to figure out if we can carry in our church? Our church has a school associated with it. There are school buildings and Church and Family Life Center buildings as well as a Youth Center. The church was there first, and when I went to school there (I rode my dino to get there) it was always said that the church owned all the property and "allowed" the school to use it. The school occasionally uses the church and FLC buildings for programs, but on Sundays it is all church "stuff". There are Sunday school classes in the school buildings, but we do not go into those. The buildings are connected by covered walkways, the property is not posted 30.06, but there are ways to get into the church and FLC without going even on the walkways by the school.

I tried looking up tax records and then my blonde ebbed and I realized that they are not a taxable entity. SOOOOO any suggestions to determine who owns the property?

I know the obvious - call 'em and ask - but that will be my last resort.

Thanks all you experienced brains out there.

[CJATE]

talked about it not long ago.

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[Divided Attention]

Respectfully, I had reviewed that topic, but this is a case where the Church as a perochial school associated with it but with seperate buildings - share real estate and we are unsure of who (school vs church) owns the property.

Thanks! There is so much great info on this board sometimes it gets overlooked and repeated. I have tried diligently for a while to search this question out here, and thought I would throw it out there.

[C-dub]

This is my opinion and I am not a lawyer. I am basing my opinion on previous threads here. I hope I get this right.

The church is just that, a church, and nothing more. Even if they have Sunday school classes that doesn't qualify it as a school. If it is a separate structure from what is a "school" then you are okay. Covered walkways, as in canvas or whatever stretched across poles or posts of some kind don't qualify as attached and the buildings are still separate.

It doesn't matter what the activity is, if it is a "school" then we cannot carry inside any of the buildings unless we have written permission from the school board or whomever can grant that permission.

[Keith B]

If the school is a K-12 or K- X grade private school and accredited by the Texas Private School Accreditation Commission, then I would say it is a school and no carry. If it is NOT accredited and the building is predominantly a church all the time, then I would say it is a church. Since there is not really case law on these non-accredited types of schools, then it is tough to determine yes or no on the carry status. I would probably just stay clear of any school classes or functions and carry in the portion that has the church activity going on.

This is my personal take on these types of scenarios, and is no way legal advice as IANAL.

[rbrecount]

S'cuse me, gentlemen, but carrying into a church is forbidden too, so we lose either way.

Texas Penal Code 46.035 part b(6) "on the premises of a church, synagogue" - and so on.

Both places are known for deadly violence.

[Teamless]

S'cuse me, gentlemen, but carrying into a church is forbidden too,

Sorry, but it is not forbidden, unless it is posted with the 30.06 proper signage.
Others will come along behind me to give the actual law, but it is not off limits.

[JJVP]

S'cuse me, gentlemen, but carrying into a church is forbidden too, so we lose either way.

Texas Penal Code 46.035 part b(6) "on the premises of a church, synagogue" - and so on.

Both places are known for deadly violence.

Sorry you are wrong. You stopped reading to early. You need to read the entire section. See (i) below:

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor
was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

So church carry is forbidden only if posted as required by 30.06, same as any business.

[sjfcontrol]

S'cuse me, gentlemen, but carrying into a church is forbidden too, so we lose either way.

Texas Penal Code 46.035 part b(6) "on the premises of a church, synagogue" - and so on.

Both places are known for deadly violence.

PC46.035(i) "Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) does not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06" Church carry is subsection (b)(6), so to be off-limits, it must be posted 30.06 just like any other location.

[phrogg]

My church is in somewhat the same situation. We have a pre-school through Kindergarten that happens at the church. But that only is going on during those school hours, outside of that, its the educational wing of the church and used for church events. We have members of the church on the school board and we run it as part of the church programs while at the same time its incorporated separately. The school pays an amount each year back to the church for the use of the facilities. But...they are not in the care, custody and control of the facility. They do have some keys but they do not have an agreement that allows them to carry insurance on the property. It is well understood that when there are conflicts between the teachers that use the facility on the weekend and those that use it every day during the week that the weekender's win. Though we try to make some compromise that works for both, its still the church, and not the school primarily.

That all being said, I still will not walk through the education building pretty much for any reason even when its not being used as a school. They may use some of the other places in the church, but its easy to see that they are a church. When you go in the edu building its hard to not see it to be a school. So I personally have deemed that building to be a premises and just don't carry in there.

[shootthesheet]

Maybe this would be a good opportunity for us to contact our State elected officials and tell them to do away with all restrictions where schools and school events are concerned. 2011 is the time we get what we did not last session plus much more.

By my count the Republicans gained 22 seats in the House which puts them one vote away from a super-majority. That is what Alice Tripp said on NRANEWS.COM anyway. The time for excuses is over. If we push we should be able to get some major reform so we don't have to wait another two years while innocents die and good people fear walking into a building because they were forced to disarm.

Constitutional Carry and major CHL reform in 2011!

[Divided Attention]

I appreciate all the feed back, and while it is all great info, once again my wordiness has foiled me.

Simpler version - how do you find out what entity owns property of a tax exempt organization? I can search all the property around the church property, but for some reason that address "returns no results" and searching by name on the clerk's site doesn't return the church OR school's name or anything near that associated with that address.

Thanks again!

[srothstein]

All of the property should be listed in the property tax rolls. It has to be included for them to show the exemption and the total loss of value for the exemptions gets reported to the state each year. Even government owned properties get listed.

The trick might be the address it is listed under. Try searching for all of the street with no block number. Sometimes larger properties do not get entered properly. It might also be listed on the cross street if it is a corner property. One of the weird tricks is that the postal service assigns almost all street addresses to the lot, and it can be done before the building is built. No one is forced to have the building face the way you would think it should by the address.

As a worst case, you can make a written request to the appraisal district for the property records they have. Some districts do not put all of their records in the public computer inquiry systems, even if the information is public record. A written open records request will get you the answer.

[Divided Attention]

Finally found it - with the "old" address that the original building had before the newer building. The church got a new address after they build the FLC where the church offices are housed.

I digress. The entire tract of land is listed under the church. The school is not listed at all, and it shows the entire property line.

[CJATE]

Respectfully, I had reviewed that topic, but this is a case where the Church as a perochial school associated with it but with seperate buildings - share real estate and we are unsure of who (school vs church) owns the property.

Thanks! There is so much great info on this board sometimes it gets overlooked and repeated. I have tried diligently for a while to search this question out here, and thought I would throw it out there.

I don't see how your situation is different... if in any way shape or form a school, then it's a school and you can't carry.

i'd like for there to be a case defining this, but i'm not willing to have that case named after me...