MPA Carry By a CHL

[ScottDLS]

Okay, I'll play.
Under that counter argument, what authority then does a LEO have to carry a weapon at all in the performance of their duties?

46.15(a)(1)---Which you'll note does not exempt them from 46.035

PC §46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do
not apply to:
(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122,
Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace
officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state,
including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless
of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in
the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while
carrying the weapon;

[jamisjockey]

Article 2.122 does not cover Texas peace officers, but officers of other states and the Federal Government

Art. 2.122. SPECIAL INVESTIGATORS. (a) The following named criminal investigators of the United States shall not be deemed peace officers, but shall have the powers of arrest, search and seizure as to felony offenses only under the laws of the State of Texas:

(1) Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation;

(2) Special Agents of the Secret Service;

(3) Special Agents of the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement;

(4) Special Agents of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms;

(5) Special Agents of Federal Drug Enforcement Agency;

(6) Inspectors of the United States Postal Service;

(7) Special Agents of the Criminal Investigation Division and Inspectors of the Internal Security Division of the Internal Revenue Service;

(8) Civilian Special Agents of the United States Naval Investigative Service;

(9) Marshals and Deputy Marshals of the United States Marshals Service;

(10) Special Agents of the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services; and

(11) Special Agents of the United States Department of State, Bureau of Diplomatic Security.

(b) A person designated as a special policeman by the Federal Protective Services division of the General Services Administration under 40 U.S.C. Section 318 or 318d is not a peace officer but has the powers of arrest and search and seizure as to any offense under the laws of this state.

(c) A Customs and Border Protection Officer of the United States Customs and Border Protection or a Border Patrol agent, immigration enforcement agent, or deportation officer of the Department of Homeland Security is not a peace officer under the laws of this state but, on the premises of a port facility designated by the commissioner of the United States Customs and Border Protection as a port of entry for arrival in the United States by land transportation from the United Mexican States into the State of Texas or at a permanent established border patrol traffic check point, has the authority to detain a person pending transfer without unnecessary delay to a peace officer if the agent or officer has probable cause to believe that the person has engaged in conduct that is a violation of Section 49.02, 49.04, 49.07, or 49.08, Penal Code, regardless of whether the violation may be disposed of in a criminal proceeding or a juvenile justice proceeding.

(d) A commissioned law enforcement officer of the National Park Service is not a peace officer under the laws of this state, except that the officer has the powers of arrest, search, and seizure as to any offense under the laws of this state committed within the boundaries of a national park or national recreation area. In this subsection, "national park or national recreation area" means a national park or national recreation area included in the National Park System as defined by 16 U.S.C. Section 1c(a).

(e) A Special Agent or Law Enforcement Officer of the United States Forest Service is not a peace officer under the laws of this state, except that the agent or officer has the powers of arrest, search, and seizure as to any offense under the laws of this state committed within the National Forest System. In this subsection, "National Forest System" has the meaning assigned by 16 U.S.C. Section 1609.

(f) Security personnel working at a commercial nuclear power plant, including contract security personnel, trained and qualified under a security plan approved by the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission, are not peace officers under the laws of this state, except that such personnel have the powers of arrest, search, and seizure, including the powers under Section 9.51, Penal Code, while in the performance of their duties on the premises of a commercial nuclear power plant site or under agreements entered into with local law enforcement regarding areas surrounding the plant site.

(g) In addition to the powers of arrest, search, and seizure under Subsection (a), a Special Agent of the Secret Service protecting a person described by 18 U.S.C. Section 3056(a) or investigating a threat against a person described by 18 U.S.C. Section 3056(a) has the powers of arrest, search, and seizure as to:

(1) misdemeanor offenses under the laws of this state; and

(2) any criminal offense under federal law.

I've played my last card. Beyond that, I'm stumped.


Moreso, I'm not sure why would a licensed peace officer in the state of Texas need a CHL?

[ScottDLS]

PC §46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do
not apply to:
(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122,Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace
officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state,
including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless
of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in
the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while
carrying the weapon;

Note it says Peace Officers OR (Feds).

I believe that a Texas Peace officers get CHL's for a couple reasons:

- NICS exemption when buying personal firearms.
- So they can carry if they leave the force or retire prior to being eligible for Federal LEOSA.

[Keith B]

PC §46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do
not apply to:
(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122,Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace
officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state,
including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless
of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in
the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while
carrying the weapon;

Note it says Peace Officers OR (Feds).

I believe that a Texas Peace officers get CHL's for a couple reasons:

- NICS exemption when buying personal firearms.
- So they can carry if they leave the force or retire prior to being eligible for Federal LEOSA.

Also, if for some reason they don't want to reveal that they are a LEO, and someone accidentily sees the gun, then all they have to do is say 'I have a Concealed Handgun License'

[jamisjockey]

My apologies to pacific job. I was curt and a little bit of a smart aleck in my reply.
Anyone got any humble pie? Looks like I presented the wrong arguement to make my point.
PC §46.15 does not waive the requirements of 46.035 as far as I can tell for a peace officer.

As far as 46.15 and 2.122.....neither actually grants authority to a Texas Peace Officer to carry a weapon. Where does that authority come from in Texas codes/laws? Maybe the answer is there.


Circling around back to the original post:
According to 411.205 you must display your CHL when asked for ID. Upon presentation of the CHL, the officer either asks what you're carrying, or uses 411.207 to disarm you. Upon seeing that your weapon is a SA, the officer compares that to your CHL and sees you're carrying an NSA (411.179).

GC §411.187. SUSPENSION OF LICENSE. (a) The department
shall suspend a license under this section if the license holder:
(3) carries a concealed handgun under the authority of this subchapter
of a different category than the license holder is licensed to
carry;

I don't see anywhere that grants an exception under TPC for a permit holder to violate the terms of his permit. Lets say you're in your vehicle or enroute to it, and you're contacted by a Peace Officer who follows the chain and determines you're in violation of your CHL. I don't see a criminal penalty, all I see is 411.187.
According to TPC 46.15:

PC §46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do
not apply to:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued
under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a
concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person
is carrying;

My final argument is that if you are in possesion of a CHL, you must abide by the terms of the CHL. If it is not prohibited by 411 subsection H or 46.035, then it falls to 46.02 and 46.03. You can openly carry a firearm in your home because it is not barred by 46.035 and it is allowed by 46.02. You cannot carry an SA on an NSA endorsement because it is barred by 411.179, punishable by 411.187.

[ScottDLS]

My apologies to pacific rim job. I was curt and a little bit of a smart aleck in my reply.
Anyone got any humble pie? Looks like I presented the wrong arguement to make my point.
PC §46.15 does not waive the requirements of 46.035 as far as I can tell for a peace officer.

As far as 46.15 and 2.122.....neither actually grants authority to a Texas Peace Officer to carry a weapon. Where does that authority come from in Texas codes/laws? Maybe the answer is there.


Circling around back to the original post:
According to 411.205 you must display your CHL when asked for ID. Upon presentation of the CHL, the officer either asks what you're carrying, or uses 411.207 to disarm you. Upon seeing that your weapon is a SA, the officer compares that to your CHL and sees you're carrying an NSA (411.179).

GC §411.187. SUSPENSION OF LICENSE. (a) The department
shall suspend a license under this section if the license holder:
(3) carries a concealed handgun under the authority of this subchapter
of a different category than the license holder is licensed to
carry;

I don't see anywhere that grants an exception under TPC for a permit holder to violate the terms of his permit. Lets say you're in your vehicle or enroute to it, and you're contacted by a Peace Officer who follows the chain and determines you're in violation of your CHL. I don't see a criminal penalty, all I see is 411.187.
According to TPC 46.15:

PC §46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do
not apply to:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued
under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a
concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person
is carrying;

My final argument is that if you are in possesion of a CHL, you must abide by the terms of the CHL. If it is not prohibited by 411 subsection H or 46.035, then it falls to 46.02 and 46.03. You can openly carry a firearm in your home because it is not barred by 46.035 and it is allowed by 46.02. You cannot carry an SA on an NSA endorsement because it is barred by 411.179, punishable by 411.187.

Nothing (that I can find) specifically "authorizes" a Peace Officer to carry a handgun. It's just not against the law (or to be very technical 46.15 makes the law prohibiting it inapplicable). Nothing authorizes me to carry a rifle either, but I can do it legally.

The crux of my argument in this thread is that you must abide by the terms of your CHL...when you are carrying under its authority. If you argue that you are always carrying under its authority if you have one, then you get the following results:

- It is a crime to carry a handgun openly in your house (only of you are a CHL).
- A Peace Officer who is a CHL is commiting a crime by openly carrying a handgun on duty.
- A CHL commits a crime by failing to conceal his handgun at the range.
- You are in violation of your NSA CHL if you shoot a SA at the range...and can have your license suspended...even if you are taking the test to change your license to SA.
- You are in violation of you NSA CHL if you carry a concealed SA in your house....or CAR (which is what my OP was about).

I don't think the law was intended to prohibit CHL's from doing something that they could do if they didn't have a CHL. A non-CHL can legally carry a semi-auto in his car, so I just don't see you getting your NSA license suspended for doing the same thing, though as noted it would be illegal to get out of the car with it.

Anyway, while we may differ in our interpretation of the above, you have pointed out a number of sections of the CHL laws that I wasn't familiar with and gave me insight in a number of areas. Thanks.

-Scott

[C-dub]

Isn't there some kind of LE license? I think I remember GigAg referring to it in another thread somewhere.

EDIT: Found it. TCLEOSE! I bet it is in there somewhere.

[srothstein]

I think that I have previously posted what you are all missing. Exceptions to the law only apply when the act is illegal. So, under most conditions, 46.02 makes carrying a gun illegal. 46.15 says there are some conditions where this law does not apply. So, police can carry a gun because the ban doe snot apply. So can travelers and a few others, including CHL's.

Now, if we look carefully at 46.02, we see that carrying a gun in your car is not illegal for most of us. So the CHL never comes into play because it is an exception to the law which is not in play.

So, carrying a semi in your pocket in your car is legal, even if you only have a revolver CHL.

Now comes the real confusing part. How can a CHL carry openly in his house, or how can a cop carry openly with a CHL? Please note that open carry for a CHL is illegal based on 46.035. But this section specifically says it only applies when you are carrying under the authority of your CHL. If you are in your own home, you are not breaking the law in 46.02, so your CHL never comes into play, and therefore 46.035 does not come into play.

But it is a little trickier for the CHL-Cop. He is openly carrying in public and on other people's property. He has two different exceptions to 46.02 - cop and CHL. Which one takes precedence? Can he choose? There is nothing in the law to give either one overriding authority in lieu of the other one. So what do you do when there is a conflict? The only answer is to let the user choose which one applies. One of the basic rules the court uses is common sense. No one would reasonably think any law would make it illegal for a police officer to carry his pistol on his duty belt on duty. So, he must be allowed to choose which option applies.

In other words, despite his having a CHL, he can ignore many of the CHL specific laws since he is a cop. The weird part is he only gets to ignore the ones that conflict. He would still have to show his CHL when he is asked by another officer to show his dl. This is because the law says if he has a gun on or about his person and has a CHL. It does not mention carrying under the authority of the CHL.

This goes further to help you. You, as a CHL might come under multiple exceptions in 46.15 also. You could be traveling, hunting, or in the military on duty all while having a CHL. You would get all of the benefits of any of the exceptions instead of having to choose one. To be honest, in most cases, there is little more benefit over a CHL to any of the exceptions other than LEO, but there might be one you can use.

[jamisjockey]

Interesting and distinctly possible.

[Bullwhip]

PC §46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do
not apply to:
(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122,Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace
officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state,
including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless
of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in
the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while
carrying the weapon;

Note it says Peace Officers OR (Feds).

I believe that a Texas Peace officers get CHL's for a couple reasons:

- NICS exemption when buying personal firearms.
- So they can carry if they leave the force or retire prior to being eligible for Federal LEOSA.

Also, if for some reason they don't want to reveal that they are a LEO, and someone accidentily sees the gun, then all they have to do is say 'I have a Concealed Handgun License'

My cop buddy says if he gets suspended he can't carry under LEOSA, so he got a CHL just in case. I guess that department likes to investigate people a lot. He is building up his time so he can move.