What would you do?

[texasjeep44]

The question is what would you do as an instructor if you became aware that another instructor in your area was following the rules for CHL classes.

Say for instance this person is doing condensed classes consisting of about 5 hours for first time students total, reading the test questions to them and pretty much giving them the answers, and doing the proficiency portion off the side of a county road someplace and not actually scoring the targets.

The wife and I are at odds regarding what should be done. I am tempted to take his class as a first time student then after I get the signed form 100, let him know that as an instructor, I am informing the DPS of the practices with a signed affidavit detailing the class time and activities. The reason for this is that I don't know the instructor number just his name and location.

Is this a bad idea, or should he be simply reported with the information that I have available.

[A-R]

Someone doing that definitely should be reported. But I'd be careful about impersonating a student to "catch him in the act" ... I'm no lawyer, but seems to me some sort of problem could come toward you for taking that action ... fraud? I dunno, just thinking out loud.

Where did you get the info that his instructor was cutting corners? Will the person who told you this not report it to DPS?

[powerboatr]

Back in the day there was a guy in south florida that was administering the FAA airframe and powerplant test for those wishing to obtain said license and work as licensed aircraft repair technicians
he did this for numerous years. Well it was found out that he was TEACHING the test and his pre test prep classes were actually bull sessions for 16 man hours and when the folks went to take the test via a faa approved online vpn site, his instructors were there as GUIDES if you will for the test. needless to say he had a 99% success rate and guaranteed if you paid his school xx amount of $$ you would pass and be licensed.
the shear number of folks that took his classes and were licensed was SHOCKING....over 3000 in less than 10 years.
well this guy was found out and he was closed and fined and put in jail.
his students all received letters from the FAA that there licenses were invalid and they had xx amount of days to retest at an approved site or loose said license.
many of these folks had been now working in the aviation field for 5-10 years and had inspector authorizations and were quite competent from all the hands on learning over the years......before and after the class.
so now we had 3k technicians that suddenly ALL their work over the past time line was INVALID. this included airlines and private planes all flying around thinking they had been repaired by LICENSED technicians.
most of the techs going through the school actually had all the training, prior to this class, they just wanted a prep class to put them at ease and settle their minds.
the FAA test is daunting and like all government tests, a bit weird.
most went down to the faa and retested, passed and received new certificates, and only by some creative posturing did we avoid a complete aircraft grounding nationwide from this school being shut down.
the point is we had 3k technicians doing work and they were doing it with out a legal license.
this made other schools have to go through intense scrutiny of their classes and training practices, to this day if a tech is known to had gone through the Florida school he/she is looked upon as less than adequate....

so you have a guy teaching the chl class and cutting corners in training and doing range time on the side of the road....
you have an obligation to the rest of us chl holders to report it, if you have proof and you do not do an illegal act to catch him/her
we need not have to go through rechecks because some ape chooses to teach a half class and CHEAT.
thats my soap box

[texasjeep44]

The person that relayed the info to me would not do it, they are caught in between on this one. They are a neighbor and one of my first students who endured my first 12 hour course.

There were a group of folks that wanted to take a Sunday course, and were asking my neighbor about it etc. He gave them some of my business cards and said to give me a call. They never did, they just kept asking him questions about how much my class was, how long it would take etc.

Then one of them came across a dude that would do the class for a cut fee and initially said it would only take 1.5 hours or so. They asked my neighbor if I would be willing to do a short class for them, and my response was absolutely not, I don't get in all I really want people to know in the 10 hour course.

So apparently last Sunday 8 of them took what ended up being a 5 hour course. Of course after they get all the paperwork they are asking my neighbor if the instructor gets caught will their CHL's be valid still if the instructor gets his certificate pulled. Seems they would have that concern before they took the class, but hey, what do I know.

Anyway, I could care less what the guy charges or if folks prefer his class to ours, but when serious corners are cut, I can't see how all the information can be covered with this type of class. I certainly don't want a bunch of under educated CHL holders doing stupid stuff and giving the rest of us a bad name.

[CainA]

I think I would report him with what information you have now and let the DPS handle it; it's their job. Let them know that you are interested in what their investigation reveals and what their action plan is.(wishful thinking)

-Cain

[MasterOfNone]

You definitely need to report this. He is robbing his students, cheating the system, and compromising the integrity of the entire program. The behavior of such instructors detracts from the trust that is placed in the honest ones.
Let DPS's investigative team look into it.

[wally775]

I would check to make sure he is listed as an instructor in Texas.
Make sure the students were not in a Utah class.
I would report him to DPS and let them handle the investigation.
In my opinion if everything is as reported to you I am certain it would not
take long for an investigation to be forthcoming.

JMO

[The Annoyed Man]

If this stuff goes unreported to the proper authorities now, it is only a matter of time until it gets reported to the public by an unsympathetic press which is hostile to CHL later. These things don't happen in a vacuum. If it is dealt with now, it gets handled quickly, efficiently, and most important, quietly by the DPS - the agency tasked with regulating these things. DPS can't do their job if we don't keep them informed of instructor violations of CHL instruction laws. If the press finds out that it isn't being dealt with, then you can count on them raising issues with anti gun legislators — just like what happened with the press discovered that unethical Utah CFP instructors were marketing CFP as an alternative to CHL in Texas, rather than as an adjunct to CHL. And now you've got some bozos making trouble in the legislature over it, and law-abiding Texans who did everything right and as they were supposed to are the ones whose rights are going to be negatively impacted if this kind of crap - there is no other word for it - continues to be hyped in the media until the legislature does something by way of added restrictions to the RKBA.

I say, report that instructor for the dog that he is. He is breaking the law. It should not go unpunished. What's right is right, and that ain't right.

[Bart]

when the folks went to take the test via a faa approved online vpn site, his instructors were there as GUIDES if you will for the test. needless to say he had a 99% success rate and guaranteed if you paid his school xx amount of $$ you would pass and be licensed.

That sounds like the CHL instructors who "help" students pass the shooting test with a SA even if the students can't administratively handle a SA handgun.

[Oldgringo]

If this stuff goes unreported to the proper authorities now, it is only a matter of time until it gets reported to the public by an unsympathetic press which is hostile to CHL later. These things don't happen in a vacuum. If it is dealt with now, it gets handled quickly, efficiently, and most important, quietly by the DPS - the agency tasked with regulating these things. DPS can't do their job if we don't keep them informed of instructor violations of CHL instruction laws. If the press finds out that it isn't being dealt with, then you can count on them raising issues with anti gun legislators — just like what happened with the press discovered that unethical Utah CFP instructors were marketing CFP as an alternative to CHL in Texas, rather than as an adjunct to CHL. And now you've got some bozos making trouble in the legislature over it, and law-abiding Texans who did everything right and as they were supposed to are the ones whose rights are going to be negatively impacted if this kind of crap - there is no other word for it - continues to be hyped in the media until the legislature does something by way of added restrictions to the RKBA.

I say, report that instructor for the dog that he is. He is breaking the law. It should not go unpunished. What's right is right, and that ain't right.

What TAM says. Sooner or later, our chickens will come home to roost.

[Rick343]

I don't know how he could condense a 10 hour class into 5, I have a hard enough time covering everything I want to cover in 10. If you turn him in DPS will more than likely put a person in his class to verify what you are saying is true. If it is, DPS will thke the proper action.

[Oldgringo]

I don't know how he could condense a 10 hour class into 5, I have a hard enough time covering everything I want to cover in 10. If you turn him in DPS will more than likely put a person in his class to verify what you are saying is true. If it is, DPS will thke the proper action.

Think about it. Where's the hall monitor?

[WildBill]

The question is what would you do as an instructor if you became aware that another instructor in your area was following the rules for CHL classes.

Say for instance this person is doing condensed classes consisting of about 5 hours for first time students total, reading the test questions to them and pretty much giving them the answers, and doing the proficiency portion off the side of a county road someplace and not actually scoring the targets.

The wife and I are at odds regarding what should be done. I am tempted to take his class as a first time student then after I get the signed form 100, let him know that as an instructor, I am informing the DPS of the practices with a signed affidavit detailing the class time and activities. The reason for this is that I don't know the instructor number just his name and location.

Is this a bad idea, or should he be simply reported with the information that I have available.

I think that this is a bad idea. You might look as though you are trying to eliminate your competition.

If a student of the other instructor has evidence of any wrong doing, then he or she should be the person that files a complaint with DPS. Since your neighbors asked you if you would cut the class short, they seem to be willing to cut corners.

How would you feel if another instructor made a complaint about your CHL class when they had no first hand knowledge or objective evidence that you weren't following DPS guidelines? Would you want the DPS to investigate you based on a rumor?

IANAL or CHL Instructor.

[MoJo]

Would you want the DPS to investigate you based on a rumor?

IANAL or CHL Instructor.

If it quashed the rumor no problem - - - that's why DPS investigates rather than simply pulling the instructor's certificate - - - to be sure its true not rumor.

[WildBill]

Would you want the DPS to investigate you based on a rumor?

IANAL or CHL Instructor.

If it quashed the rumor no problem - - - that's why DPS investigates rather than simply pulling the instructor's certificate - - - to be sure its true not rumor.

If you think that way, that's your prerogative, but I would not want to be investigated by any agency based on unsustantiated rumors that came from sources who have no direct knowledge of the event or any evidence of wrong doing.