Office policy / accommodation for CHL holders

[sailor2000]

We have our business in an office building in which we are the exclusive occupant. We are in a health care business. The office is used by administrative staff and our field staff are in and out. We almost never have non employees in the building with the exception of vendors or contractors. We occasionally permit field staff members to bring their children in to their assigned / shared work area if they are dropping off paperwork or filling out forms.

My wife and I own the business. I have carried there for years. I wear street clothes and am generally carrying a 45 auto IWB (CS45 in a Bladetech) with an IWB mag carrier (brossbreed) on a 1 1/2" gun belt. The weapon is always in my possession unless I go to the rest room in which case I lock it in my desk and then lock my office.

Here is the problem (or opportunity if you like).

My wife and other female employees ( I am the only full time male in the office, but that is another story ) have begun acquiring CHLs. They ALL wear scrubs. Scrubs have no belts and really minimal pockets. This means they are carrying in their purses. Some of these employees work out of cubicles.

I am worried, frankly, about the potential for unsecured weapons, i.e. left in a purse on the office or cube floor or surface while they step away for a moment.

Can anyone point me to a 'model' policy for this? I recall that SWA was at the forefront on this issue.

Do I provide lockers?

Do I require they be left in their vehicles?

I see a liability minefield here.

Responses from others in similar situations or attorney's greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[lonewolf]

Perhaps giving them all those elastic belly band type holsters for the holidays.....might work out reasonably well under scrubs. I would wear a t-shirt under it, though....

[KC5AV]

Do their desks lock?

[powerboatr]

Perhaps giving them all those elastic belly band type holsters for the holidays.....might work out reasonably well under scrubs. I would wear a t-shirt under it, though....

and since we are sailors here.
scrubs for admin staff????
like flight suits for the topside folks that don't fly


elastic belly carriers sounds like a good gift.
i think if you offered lockers for firearms you could be opening up a can of worms and responsibility
do these folks carry to the hospital??? most hospitals are no carry...
vehicle strong boxes might be a better gift
let the flaming begin

[C-dub]

I have been in and out of many hospitals over the years and have seen many of the nurses wearing fanny packs to store more things than their pockets could hold and no one ever questioned them. I would seriously consider this for any of them, but especially the ones in scrubs.

For those that work in cubicles, most cubicles I've seen all have at least one locking drawer or overhead cabinet that would also be out of reach for many children. Many of those can also be locked.

[lonewolf]

Definitely squid city posting on this topic. The belly band just jumped into my head since there was plenty of room there........thinking back, I kinda like the idea.......

I vividly remember being chased out of the galley for midrats because I was in my coveralls after having spent 12 hours in engineroom and having just time enough to grab some chow before going back into the "hole" for 6 hours of watch.......after that we just heated up pork and beans in the can by setting them on the generator turbines.......

+1 on the locking drawers as well, but there just might be the one time a non-employee was there for some reason and saw someone disarm or rearm......not a particularly good scenario.......

[Excaliber]

How about a simple rule:

Legally possessed personally owned firearms must be either carried on the person or stored in a securely locked compartment with the key kept on the person at all times.

[JJVP]

How about a simple rule:

Legally possessed personally owned firearms must be either carried on the person or stored in a securely locked compartment with the key kept on the person at all times.

Good idea.

[RHenriksen]

How about a simple rule:

Legally possessed personally owned firearms must be either carried on the person or stored in a securely locked compartment with the key kept on the person at all times.

No, no - too much personal discretion. The policy should specify that only holsters and other carry solutions on the approved list be allowed...

Then never publish the list.

That's how they do it in California, right?

[TexasGal]

Obviously my solution would only work for women and perhaps a few guys who have kinky tastes in dress , but here it is for consideration:

I carry in the elastic waistband of my scrubs every day without a belt. I do have a bellyband and have used it, but found this method works better for me most of the time. I am carrying my 642 snubbie in an IWB clip on Uncle Mikes holster. It is at 2:00 and, to secure it better, I have two short elastic straps with suspender clips on each end. One is attached from the waistband to my bra in front of the holster. The other is attached from the bra to the waistband behind the holster with it crossing over the grip to keep it secured in the holster and pulled against my side better. The clips are very quick and easy to release for bathroom trips and in case I need to draw the gun. It conceals very well, doesn't slip out of the holster with all the bending and twisting I do all day, is comfortable, and doesn't pull my scrub pants down on my waist. This would not work well with a larger gun, but it works with this one or likely any gun smaller. The uncle mikes does not have much retention on the gun which can work in it's favor: If I need to draw it, it won't pull the holster off the elastic waist of the pants along with the gun. However, because of the same lack of much retention, I use the elastic strap over the grip as described to keep it in the holster as I am busy all day twisting, leaning, and bending. One word of caution, during bathroom trips, I keep my hand on the grip to keep it from sliding out of the holster the entire time. Certainly don't want that loud "clunk" sound to make anyone wonder what the heck just fell

I do agree with the suggested policy someone mentioned. I carry this way precisely because I don't want it in my purse away from my direct control and I don't want to have to find myself in a situation where a BG is between me and my purse.
Another suggestion is I sometimes wear regular slacks that I can use a belt with for the gun and then matching scrub tops with them. They look fine. Perhaps a company wardrobe change like this could allow better holsters/belts to be used.

Oh, and you are AWESOME for letting your employees carry at work!

[sailor2000]

Thanks for the comments so far. To address a few:
* Most of the office staff are nurses or have other medical training. We feel we maintain a more professional 'look' by making the uniform of the day 'scrubs'. We do occasionally have patients or patients family visit and we have an area of the lobby set up just for this purpose.
* We do NOT want employees removing their weapons from their holsters or purses to store them. Keeping the weapons in their transport gear 'keeps the bugger hook off the bang button'. We also do not want to invite a 'hostile workplace' suit by having the non gun friendly folks feel intimidated or scared by seeing firearms in the workplace. And I certainly do not want to see their firearms displayed or revealed in the office. We have had an employee 'range' day before and that is the only place I want to actually see their firearms.
* Our employees do not routinely go into hospitals or other medical facilities. Our services are provided in the patients homes. (Another policy issue we need to address is licensed carry while in the field). Some of our patients homes are in areas I would hesitate to enter without an armored vehicle, but that is just me. Our field staff truly are angels who put the patients care first.
* I am not an attorney, but I do NOT want to specify carry methods as that looks like another liability minefield.
* I don't think I want to know or require employees to divulge if they have a CHL or if they carry (help me here lawyers). I do think I need a policy which says something which expresses a prohibition against carrying or possessing weapons on company premises except IAW the CHL laws and the vehicle transport law.
* Thanks for the kind words TexasGal. We are just trying to walk the walk when it comes to the individual rights of our employees. Now the trick is how do we do that AND stay in business.

[jimlongley]

. . . I have two short elastic straps with suspender clips on each end. One is attached from the waistband to my bra in front of the holster. The other is attached from the bra to the waistband behind the holster with it crossing over the grip to keep it secured in the holster and pulled against my side better. . .

Very similar to the USMC solution to keeping your shirt neatly tucked in.

But my perverse imagination keeps picturing a totally hilarious YouTube video in the works, as a totally unanticipated combination of events leads to much stretched elastic and a handgun slingshotting across the room.

I don't have any solutions to add, but would like to congratulate the OP on running a progressive workplace.

[maverick2076]

I would think that, instead of trying to set a policy requiring them to carry a certain way, you would simply have a discussion with your employees about your concerns and carry methods. Perhaps have a one seminar on different carry options, focusing on finding a better way to carry in your daily clothes. Then, if you are serious about getting your employees to change, perhaps offer to subsidize their acquisition of a better carry method. This way, you are not writing a policy that could open you up to liability, you aren't taking away from a person's ability to choose carry method, but you are encouraging an open dialogue and perhaps helping people to find a better way to carry. If nothing else, such a seminar would be a learning opportunity for everyone involved, and you might get some new and creative solutions out of it. Just my two cents...

[mbw]

Privately consult an attorney with knowledge of CHL issues, like Charles Cotton. Pay the fee that the attorney charges you for the knowledgeable information. That is the starting point. Use the advice to develop a company policy. When you actually pay for the advice from a consultant, you tend to get better advice. You also have someone to go back to in the event of a problem.

Do not take advice from an internet forum to structure a policy for your business, unless it is a business that you are willing to lose.

[b322da]

I would think that, instead of trying to set a policy requiring them to carry a certain way, you would simply have a discussion with your employees about your concerns and carry methods. Perhaps have a one seminar on different carry options, focusing on finding a better way to carry in your daily clothes. Then, if you are serious about getting your employees to change, perhaps offer to subsidize their acquisition of a better carry method. This way, you are not writing a policy that could open you up to liability, you aren't taking away from a person's ability to choose carry method, but you are encouraging an open dialogue and perhaps helping people to find a better way to carry. If nothing else, such a seminar would be a learning opportunity for everyone involved, and you might get some new and creative solutions out of it. Just my two cents...

While having a talk with employees is a fine idea for discouraging the possibility of a case of the worst happening, I am not sure that this is the best way to avoid the possibility of an employer's potential liability if the worst does indeed happen. Many would suggest that there is nothing like having a good faith piece of CYA paper signed by the employee on file. While the OP's progressive attitude toward his employee's carrying while on the job may be admirable, one bad case in the wrong courtroom could have very bad unintended(?) consequences state-wide.

I wouldn't think it has to be terribly long. Excaliber's suggested wording might be a real good place to start. I would, however, recommend that the OP first discuss the matter with a lawyer competent with Texas gun laws, and be prepared to pay for his or her advice. Having that discussion with his enployees after they sign the piece of paper, perhaps a part of the employee's handbook, would be a great reinforcement. Both having obtained the advice of a lawyer and the discussion with the employees would witness the employer's good faith. The ultimate issue goes way beyond this one particular business.

Elmo

Edited to recognize MBW's fine advice. He beat me to it.