Is the U.S. to blame for gun violence in Mexico?

[SwimFan85]

Bad governments won't admit their policies cause many problems. Add corruption to the mix and it's worse.

Most of us are old enough to remember antiblessed Yankee politicians blaming their crime and other social problems on the American states that embrace real civil rights like RKBA. Anyone paying attention saw the truth was most of the problems were caused by their culture of corruption and laws that disarm victims, coddle criminals predators, and penalize responsible citizens who work and save.

Mexico is doing the same thing for the same reasons.

[Excaliber]

If the "easily accessible US guns" cause violence in Mexico why aren't they causing even more violence in US ? (after all they are even more accessible in US).

What the Mexico needs is for the guns to be more accessible to its honest citizens then they are to the cartels. But the Mexican government will not go for it willingly because the first thing armed citizens would do would be to send the corrupt government of Mexico packing.

Probably for the same reasons that, according to Bloomberg's Mayors Against Citizen Survival, guns from Florida and Virginia cause more crime in NYC than they do where they came from.

It's magic.

[Skydivesnake]

The most likely reason the 18K weren't submitted for U.S. traces is because they are AK47's and similar weapons with markings that clearly indicate manufacture in other countries and of types that can't be sold in U.S. civilian channels. There's no political point to asking for a U.S. trace of a fully automatic rifle manufactured in China after 1986.

Of course - but when debating with antis, they hold that figure like a cudgel behind their backs as if those are all US firearms in order to inflate their stats.

In the meantime...

To: foiamail@atf.gov

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am filing a FOIA request for information pertaining to firearms recovered from crime-scenes in Mexico and submitted to the BATFE for tracing.

More specifically, I would like to know what quantities and percentages of the firearms that were recently successfully traced back to the US first entered Mexico via authorized US government sales to the Mexican military and police.

I would also like to request a fee waiver as I believe that the disclosure of the requested information is in the public interest and is of no commercial interest to me.

Kind regards,
Andrew C

Nice one Andy.

Two additional angles;

1) According to this WP piece where they claim to interview the Director of Mexico's only (legal) gun store operated by SEDENA;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03644.html

...they sell approximately 6,500 guns per year to Mexican applicants. The storys says '<the store>...offers a wide selection of U.S. and European shotguns and rifles - Berettas, Mossbergs...' and '...Glock and Smith & Wesson are well-represented..'.

I have also read from a post by a Mexican sportsman on another forum that the SEDENA store has several US manufactured brands represented (Ruger, Winchester, Sig, FN) that would all clearly have US marks and serial numbers. Who knows which statistical bucket these go into when recovered in Mexico ? I am betting that Mossberg, S&W and Rugers are big sellers just on price alone.


2) I found today a website 'UNITED NATIONS REGISTER OF CONVENTIONAL ARMS' after following a reference in a leaked wikileaks cable about arms trafficking into Mexico, which lists, by country and year, imports into that country of conventional arms (ie mostly small arms but also helicopters and suchlike);

http://disarmament.un.org/un_register.nsf

Apparently the information is reported by the importer, not exporter. So this info comes from the Mexican govt. In 2008 alone there are large numbers of guns imported legally from the US by SEDENA, including 4,500 Bushmaster XM152S, Colt ARs, and lots of Sigs and S&W pistols (confirming point 1) above). Again, I wonder what statistical bucket they fall into when recovered. A Sig P226 legally sold by a US distributor to SEDENA, then sold in their store, and then recovered at a Mexican crime scene could be accurately described as 'being traced back to the US'...

I have seem XM-15s in a long-running militaryphotos.net thread about firearm seizures in Mexico.

I am going to mine that site and spreadsheet the data for further analysis...

[Skydivesnake]

Finally - the Mexican media is acknowledging the globalization of arms and drug trafficking with this story about cartel alliances with suppliers in Afghanistan, Asia, China, Russia, Romania, Bulgaria and Albania (aswell as the US, of course). It's an interesting development because so far there has only been tacit acknowledgement of alliances with Central and South American groups.

No reporting of this nature has made it through to the US media as far as I know.

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/primera/36134.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(You can run it through google translator, or fire it up in Google Chrome which auto-translates)

--snip--
Based on his field investigations, Buscaglia said that "the Mexican groups are gaining a presence throughout the world, not only in drug trafficking, but in the arms and massive investments in Romania, Bulgaria, obviously, part of European Union market. "

The issue, he noted the Autonomous Technological Institute of Mexico (ITAM), is the power assets of Mexican criminal groups have increased, giving them global capacity to establish mutually beneficial investment with groups of thugs in several countries, including happened with the Italians, Russians, with the most powerful criminal groups in the world.

In this sense, confirmed that some of the weapons they are using the Mexican drug cartels from Asia as a result of exchange that are making drug traffickers.

"The most important supplies at this time, beyond the United States and China, are in Russia and Albania, where the illegal flow of weapons is huge and the exchange of guns for drugs is very common," he said Buscaglia.
--snip--

[Ameer]

How many of the murders in Mexico are committed by USA citizens or immigrants from the USA?

Based on what I hear, it sounds like Mexico causes more gun violence (and other crimes) in the USA than vice versa.

[Mastodon]

This recent tragedy in Tucson is ALL MEXICO'S FAULT.

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it.

[RPB]

This recent tragedy in Tucson is ALL MEXICO'S FAULT.

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it.

Sure blame Mexico for giving the kid too much Pot top smoke ... oh wait, no, that came from California probably.

You know, I was thinking,
If Mexico drug cartels stopped getting those fully automatic machine guns etc made in Venezuela and Brazil and were restricted to only getting SEMI-auto guns from America, they'd be safer, and so would our border guards.

I hope the fence Mexico is building at THEIR Southern border works. They are trying to keep out illegal immigrants bringing weapons and drugs in from Columbia etc. to their South INTO Mexico. They are tired of illegal immigrants I guess.

[atticus]

The same logic we apply here in the USA should apply in Mexico. For example, we tell anti-gun folks that it's not the guns, it's the criminals. Shouldn't the same logic apply south of the border? Mexico has several well-financed, ruthless narco gangs. So what if 100% of their guns came from the USA? Wouldn't it be exactly the same logic as we use here: "it's not the guns, it's the criminals." The BIG difference between the USA and Mexico: Mexico has disarmed its civilian population, so they CANNOT defend themselves. If we are true to our convictions that civilians in the USA should be armed, then why not say that it simply does not matter whether the guns in Mexico originated north of the border or not. The problem is the Mexican gun ban and a corrupt, ineffective government, not the guns themselves. A gun in Mexico is no more evil than its cousin gun in Texas - it's not the gun, it's the person holding it. I simply do not care where the guns in Mexico originated. To pursue that line of thought, that somehow guns from America is responsible for Mexico's problems, is to fall prey to the trap of the anti-gunners. Instead, we should concede the point and say that it is irrelevant. Let the president of Mexico address Mexico's abuse of its citizens, and stop lecturing us about our guns.

[Skydivesnake]

The same logic we apply here in the USA should apply in Mexico. For example, we tell anti-gun folks that it's not the guns, it's the criminals. Shouldn't the same logic apply south of the border? Mexico has several well-financed, ruthless narco gangs. So what if 100% of their guns came from the USA? Wouldn't it be exactly the same logic as we use here: "it's not the guns, it's the criminals." The BIG difference between the USA and Mexico: Mexico has disarmed its civilian population, so they CANNOT defend themselves. If we are true to our convictions that civilians in the USA should be armed, then why not say that it simply does not matter whether the guns in Mexico originated north of the border or not. The problem is the Mexican gun ban and a corrupt, ineffective government, not the guns themselves. A gun in Mexico is no more evil than its cousin gun in Texas - it's not the gun, it's the person holding it. I simply do not care where the guns in Mexico originated. To pursue that line of thought, that somehow guns from America is responsible for Mexico's problems, is to fall prey to the trap of the anti-gunners. Instead, we should concede the point and say that it is irrelevant. Let the president of Mexico address Mexico's abuse of its citizens, and stop lecturing us about our guns.

Fair comment - I would go further and say that Mexico should import MORE guns from the US such that they can be made available to suitably background-checked, law abiding Mexican citizens in larger numbers, without the restrictions that their current system has. The violent crime rate in Mexico looks to have doubled year-on-year for the last 6 years, and the Mexican govt is just trying variations on existing themes (longer jail time, additional laws against murdering cops and reporters etc) which are not going to stop that tsunami.

But the issue here is that linking the situation in Mexico with 'guns from the US' in an attempt to further demonize US gunowners and generate widespread US guilt to smoothe the way for anti-2A legislation. Put it this way - the US population doesn't want widespread gun control but might well be convinced to swallow it if sold on the idea that poor Mexicans are dying because of those nasty American AK47s and that a ban on x, y or z is the right thing to do to help those folks out. "Come on people - where's your humanity ? Mexican kids are dying and it's OUR FAULT so the least we can do is ban high-cap mags, have multiple long-arm sales reported to the BATF, have ammunition registration, and close those gun-shows down because thats where the cartels buy all their guns...' etc, etc, etc. A lot easier to sell if the govt and media have been misreporting for year after year that the guns in Mexico come from the US.

The reality is that additional gun laws in the US will make very little difference to violence committed by cartels with Asian or European-sourced AKs and grenades. But when did reality, logic or reason ever figure into the anti's push against the 2nd Amendment ?

[atticus]

I understand the claim that U.S. origin guns are responsible for deaths in Mexico. That claim has been promoted by anti-gunners for a while now. But the problem is not the guns, regardless of their point of origin. The problem in Mexico is two-fold: [1] narco gangs willing to commit atrocious murder, and [2] a disarmed civilian population. It's well to identify that real problem, because here in the good old USA the anti-gunners are seizing every opportunity (eg. the Tucson murders) to disarm citizens of the USA. The claim of linkage between USA guns and Mexican crime is simply one more of the anti-gunners' specious arguments. My response to that particular claim is to emphasize the need for Americans to be able to defend themselves. I acknowledge that we have no control, or even influence, over the Mexican domestic policy of civilian disarmament. But at least we can truthfully point out that disarmament is the real problem.

[RPB]

just another link - story from back in 2009
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04 ... xico-come/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

By William La Jeunesse & Maxim Lott

Published April 02, 2009

| FOXNews.com

What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."

But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04 ... z1CYS05RUv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, a very small percentage are sent for tracing, because it's obvious the majority aren't from here, and out of that small number sent back for tracing, 10% of those, aren't from here either.

That's similar to what the 2010 article said in the original post.

[MeMelYup]

Andy send this to your congressman and see if he will help.

To: foiamail@atf.gov

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am filing a FOIA request for information pertaining to firearms recovered from crime-scenes in Mexico and submitted to the BATFE for tracing.

More specifically, I would like to know what quantities and percentages of the firearms that were recently successfully traced back to the US first entered Mexico via authorized US government sales to the Mexican military and police.

I would also like to request a fee waiver as I believe that the disclosure of the requested information is in the public interest and is of no commercial interest to me.

Kind regards,
Andrew C

Just got this back:

Dear Mr C:

This is in response to your Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).

The ATF 2010 Appropriation Bill prohibits ATF from expending appropriated funds to disclose to the public the contents or any protion thereof of any information maintained in the Firearms Trace Database or information required to be maintained by Federal Firearms Licensee. You have requested records that fall within this restriction. Therefore, you (sic) request is denied pursuant to Title 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(3) and the Consolidated Appropriations Act, Public Law 111-117.

Insofar as your request has been denied, you have the right to submit an administrative appeal.... blah, blah

So - I can't get the info yet they can happily use it against us??