Gun Deaths and Gun Laws

[philip964]

With the recent horrible shooting in Tuscon, there has been a lot of press about guns and safety.

I think we all realize that our hobby will probably not come out the best with any new legislation that comes out.

One of the articles that piqued my interest was a chart that listed state rankings in gun laws and compared them to deaths per 100,000 people involving a gun.

States like Arizona and Alaska (yes Sarah Palins own state) have very liberal or lax gun laws, they also rank at the top of the states in deaths per 100,000 people from guns. Conversely states like Hawaii and states in New England have very restrictive gun laws and have very few deaths per 100,000 people from guns.

Had I been wrong all this time. Was I really far less safe living in Texas where gun ownership was fat and easy. I almost began believing all this time that these Brady folks had been right all along. Had I been stupid.

I thought about it long and hard. I also remembered the quote, "figures don't lie but liars figure" So I looked at it harder. I searched Murders per 100,000 people rather than deaths from guns. Hmmm the numbers seemed different. There were a lot less murders per 100,000 people than gun deaths.

Oh, I realized an "accidental" shooting, hunting accident, taking ones own life, or killing an intruder in your house are all included in gun deaths.

They are not murders. Being murdered is what we all fear. We don't want to be gun downed by a stranger trying to rob us on a dark street some night.

Then I began looking at those statistics. It seemed that if you were murdered in New York, where guns are pretty much illegal you were 80% likely to be murdered with a gun. Wow. I don't know if they have a statistic of Murders by strangers per 100,000 people, but I bet that would be pretty interesting too.

Anyway it still seems that when guns are outlawed only outlaws have guns.

March 7, 2023

Added an attachment which shows with more guns in circulation there are less murders.

[Teamless]

it still seems that when guns are outlawed only outlaws have guns.

Which is why we need LESS restrictive gun laws all around

[Beiruty]

Do you think that Bradey folks have the interest to twist the numbers to their favor? How about when they say more guns, means more crime, more murder, which year over was proven wrong!
If criminals attacked an innocent person with bat and was shot and killed by the victim of that crime, it is justified homicide. Too bad for the criminal.

Also when has not forget about property crime which as matter of course is higher where the gun control is more tight.
Even when all guns are banned, crime still do happen and innocent people are killed a fact, that anti-gunner can't stop or deny. Can I sue them for $1,000,000,000 because I was denied the means to defend myself, or my family?

Outlaws also carry guns not only to assault others, but also to defend themselves.

[Dave2]

Even when all guns are banned, crime still do happen

Speaking of which... were it illegal to possess a gun, and were you criminally inclined, in the grand scheme of things they really aren't that hard to make. You might not be able to set range or accuracy records with it, but it'd work.

So even if you do the impossible and manage to collect every single gun out there, and manage to get a 100% corruption-free military and police, the baddies will still be able to get guns.

[baldeagle]

Do not buy anybody's numbers but the FBI's Uniform Crime Statistics.

Statistics by state, 2009 (Strict gun control states are in red)
Murder and non-negligent manslaughter, rate per 100,000

1. District of Columbia 24.0
2. Puerto Rico 22.5
3. Louisiana 11.9
4. New Mexico 8.7
5. Maryland 7.7
6. Tennessee 7.3
7. Missouri 6.4
8. Mississippi 6.4
9. South Carolina 6.3
10. Oklahoma 6.2

Violent crime, rate per 100,000

1. District of Columbia 1345.9
2. Nevada 702.2
3. South Carolina 670.8
4. Tennessee 667.7
5. Delaware 636.6
6. Alaska 633
7. Louisiana 620
8. New Mexico 619
9. Florida 612.5
10. Arkansas 517.7

Property crime, rate per 100,000

1. District of Columbia 4745.4
2. Texas 4015.5
3. South Carolina 3888.6
4. Florida 3840.8
5. Louisiana 3794.6
6. Arkansas 3773.7
7. Alabama 3772.4
8. Tennessee 3754.1
9. New Mexico 3735.8
10. North Carolina 3668.1

Percent of total murders committed with firearms (handguns, rifles, shotguns and unknown)

1. Louisiana 83%
2. Illinois 81%
3. District of Columbia 78%
4. Delaware 76%
5. Wyoming 73%
6. Alabama 72%
7. Kansas 72%
8. Missouri 72%
9. Pennsylvania 71%
10. Indiana 71%

[Razgriz]

A user from Reddit found that the list is a crock of crap, it uses all gun deaths, accidental, suicide, lawful killings, ect., that's why the loose states numbers are so padded. He used Vermont as his example, stating that the list stated that there were 40~ gun deaths in a year, but from independent numbers, found that none of them were from murders. Yet another example of the brady bunch fear mongering people into their (twisted) frame of mind.

[RPB]

right, you have to watch what they actually claim, then call them on it

They'll say "gun deaths" (kid swallowed a part and choked on it?)
instead of murder using a gun (when called on it, they'll say murder BY gun, as if guns could murder people without a causal effect like someone pulling a trigger ... as in "He was murdered BY a gun" .... possibly an unloaded one fell off a shelf in an earthquake and it jumped on his head?? inert objects rarely "cause" things with no intervening "cause" so guns rarely if ever "cause" death or injury at all.... especially ones with no ammo in them made from "jumping beans" which jump out of guns for no reason at all)

They'll say "violent crime" (fistfights? illegal gambling operations of street wrestling?)(drunk husband who really DID fall down stairs but wife charged with family violence?)
instead of "armed robbery" or "aggravated assault"

When one of their believers uses the term skewing APPARENT numbers their way in an unrealistic comparison, as they often do, they need to be called on it publicly.

[74novaman]

Do not buy anybody's numbers but the FBI's Uniform Crime Statistics.

Statistics by state, 2009 (Strict gun control states are in red)
Murder and non-negligent manslaughter, rate per 100,000

1. District of Columbia 24.0
2. Puerto Rico 22.5
3. Louisiana 11.9
4. New Mexico 8.7
5. Maryland 7.7
6. Tennessee 7.3
7. Missouri 6.4
8. Mississippi 6.4
9. South Carolina 6.3
10. Oklahoma 6.2

And the reason Louisiana is so high is their insane laws dealing with murder cases.

On street corners and in the grungy holding tanks at parish prison, they have another name for it: "701," shorthand for Article 701 of the Louisiana Code of Criminal Procedure. It states that no one can be held longer than 60 days on a felony arrest without an indictment.

Sometimes a 701 release merely eliminates a bond posted by a suspect in order to remain at liberty pending a trial. But in other cases, the 701 springs a murder suspect from jail because prosecutors have failed to meet the 60-day deadline, and that's been happening with astonishing frequency -- a tenfold increase -- in the widely criticized New Orleans criminal justice system since Hurricane Katrina.

The 701 list for 2005 includes Dquane Morgan, 20, booked with the second-degree murder of Ryan Crooks, 17, shot down in a hallway at the St. Bernard public housing complex June 2, 2005.

Three days later, Morgan was arrested. Sixty days after that, he walked free on a 701 release, leaving the case cold and now closed. The reason, prosecutors noted for the record, was that they never received a police report within the 60-day period. That's the same reason the other seven murder cases from the same seven-month stretch in 2005 tanked.

Long article here: http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/defense ... uisiana210

As to banning guns and making them, I saw somewhere a quote:

"Go ahead and ban guns. If an illiterate pakistani with nothing more than an open fire and a donkey can turn out an AK in a week, how long will it take a Texan with a metal shop in his garage?"

[RPB]

Thanks for that 701 info ... I was wondering.
That makes sense.

[74novaman]

Thanks for that 701 info ... I was wondering.
That makes sense.

No problem. Saw a gangland on history channel where they were talking about how a lot of the NO gangs wound up in Houston after Katrina. When they found out Texas will keep you in jail until they can fry you, most of them packed up and went back to Louisiana.

[Razgriz]

And the reason Louisiana is so high is their insane laws dealing with murder cases.

That's the 60 day rule right? Something like if you're not convicted of a crime within 60 days you're let go? I remember watching Gangland on the History Channel, and they we're doing a show on some New Orleans gang, and they got to the part about Katrina, and how they moved to Houston. One of the gangs members kills a local gangster, gets caught, and says "doesn't matter, in 60 days I'm gone". Day 61 rolls around he's yelling for his lawyer and what not, his lawyer tells him that Texas doesn't have the "60 day murder" rule, and he either got life or the needle (can't remember). The rest of the gang moved back into what was left of New Orleans the next week.

[terryg]

I also remembered the quote, "figures don't lie but liars figure"

I was always partial to:

There are three kinds of lies: lies, dang lies, and then there are statistics.