Bowling Alley CHL

[TexasAggie09]

Howdy Yall,
I think I know the legal answer to this and I also know what the financially responsible part of me (read: part that doesn't want to lose money proving it) would do, but I have a question about a situation I came across recently. In my local bowling alley, they simply have the gunbusters sign on the door. No problem to me with a CHL. In the bowling alley is a bar. This particular bar is a separate room with a door you must go in. The bar has a 51% sign, so I wouldn't carry in the bar. But how does that relate to the rest of the building? What if the bar was open (physically) and not a separate room?

Thanks!

[MasterOfNone]

The bar has a 51% sign, so I wouldn't carry in the bar. But how does that relate to the rest of the building? What if the bar was open (physically) and not a separate room?

Thanks!

A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).

Because the sign must be posted at "each entrance to the business premises," and the definition of premises is "building or portion of a building" with no requirement that a door separate the portions, the sign should delineate the portion that is subject to the 51%.

[Keith B]

Actually, this depends on the defined area of the building. I may not explain this as well as srothstein, but will try.

When applying for a license, the applicant defines the are that the alcohol will be served in. This could be only the bar portion. If they do not allow the alcohol outside of that area, then it is possible that area is the only portion that is 51%. Now, if they allow alcohol out into the bowling alley, and then the whole location is listed on the license and is subject to the 51% restriction if they meet the requirements.

Here comes the next part; If they are part of the bowling alley and not a separate business entity, then all the funds from the bowling alley and the bar must be considered in the 51% decision, if they are a separate entity, then it is just the bar portion that is considered.

Now, the big factor is if they are really separate or not and how the monies are applied. The best bet is to check the TABC database and see if they are listed and if they have an FB (Food and Beverage) license and listed as the bowling alley name. If they have the FB, then there is no way they are 51% and the sign is improperly posted. If they DON'T have the FB on the database, but still listed as the bowling alley name on the license, then I doubt they are 51% and have the wrong sign up. At that point the only way to verify is to look at their actual liquor license posted at the location and see if it says SIGN=BLUE or SIGN=RED or call the TABC and inquire. If you look at the license and is says SIGN=BLUE, then they are not 51% and if SIGN=RED, then they are 51% and you must adhere to the prohibition for the entire address listed on their license. That may mean the whole bowling alley complex.

Hope that helps. if you will tell us where it is I can see how they are listed in the database and maybe help move you closer to knowing for sure.

[Teamless]

I had the same issue at an AMF center in Webster.
it came down to they should be BLUE SIGN, and were forced by TABC to change their signs (and they were fined for it as well).

As Keith said above, it depends... but in my case, the entire facility was under 1 license, which did not deem a 51% sign

[rm9792]

I cant see any bowling alley being 51%. Lanes are expensive and i always see many more families at any bowling alley i have been to than drinkers.

[Teamless]

I cant see any bowling alley being 51%

agreed, but what if the bar is owned and licensed by a separate entity other than the bowling portion of the facility?

[rm9792]

1. I would stay my behind away from the bar, much the same as Chili's, Red lobster, Reliant Stadium during non-sporting event, alcohol vendors at the Houston Auto Show, etc.
2. I think this is much ado about nothing.

[Keith B]

1. I would stay my behind away from the bar, much the same as Chili's, Red lobster, Reliant Stadium during non-sporting event, alcohol vendors at the Houston Auto Show, etc.
2. I think this is much ado about nothing.

There normally is not an issue even if you sit at the bar in a Chili's, etc. as mentioned above. There is no law in Texas like there is in some states where you have to stay clear of that area. And, I say NORMALLY, due to the fact as I mentioned that there are ways for a location to be deemed 51% if the address is different for the bar than the rest of the building (102A First Street for the bar vs. 102B First Street for the restaurant. Any chain restaurant is all in one and their whole location will be under the license. A good rule of thumb is if you can take alcohol out of the bar area and into the rest of the building, then it will be covered under the license. Then, it is just up to the TABC to determine what funds the business and if they are actually a 51% location or not.

[tacticool]

They should prohibit minors in 51% places, like some states do. The arguments for prohibiting guns also argue that allowing children in "those kind of places" is not appropriate.

[Keith B]

BTW, did a quick cursory review of the TABC database and if it is one of the AMF bowling locations, then it is NOT a 51% venue as they all have Food and Beverage (FB) licenses.

NOTE ADDED: Looked at your location of College Station, and if you are talking about Grand Station, then they are NOT a 51% location and have the sign posted improperly. If that is the case, then TABC needs to be contacted and have them get Grand Station to remove the sign.

[rm9792]

1. I would stay my behind away from the bar, much the same as Chili's, Red lobster, Reliant Stadium during non-sporting event, alcohol vendors at the Houston Auto Show, etc.
2. I think this is much ado about nothing.

There normally is not an issue even if you sit at the bar in a Chili's, etc. as mentioned above. There is no law in Texas like there is in some states where you have to stay clear of that area. And, I say NORMALLY, due to the fact as I mentioned that there are ways for a location to be deemed 51% if the address is different for the bar than the rest of the building (102A First Street for the bar vs. 102B First Street for the restaurant. Any chain restaurant is all in one and their whole location will be under the license. A good rule of thumb is if you can take alcohol out of the bar area and into the rest of the building, then it will be covered under the license. Then, it is just up to the TABC to determine what funds the business and if they are actually a 51% location or not.

True but all I need is some rookie who doesnt know the law to see the bottom of my holster and decide to arrest me when i decide to eat at the bar.

[MasterOfNone]

Keith,
You've given a lot of good information. But you're giving the impression that a CHL holder is responsible for determining if a business is 51%. The requirements for signage addresses this for us:

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
...
(k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code.

(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).

So if a business is 51% but is not posted at each entrance, the CHL holder has a defense under PC 46.035(k). In the case of this bowling alley, if the entrance to the bowling alley is not posted, there is no issue for the CHL, even if the alley really was 51%.

[MasterOfNone]

True but all I need is some rookie who doesnt know the law to see the bottom of my holster and decide to arrest me when i decide to eat at the bar.

Good thing CHL-16 is pocket-sized.
A cop who doesn't know any particular law could wrongfully arrest you because he thinks you did something wrong.

[Keith B]

So if a business is 51% but is not posted at each entrance, the CHL holder has a defense under PC 46.035(k). In the case of this bowling alley, if the entrance to the bowling alley is not posted, there is no issue for the CHL, even if the alley really was 51%.

Remember, this is a defense to prosecution not arrest. So, while you are right and they legally must post this or we have a defense against prosecution, there could be a issue with an officer who decides they are not sure about the law and takes you in and lets the DA determine if they want to charge you. Yes, you should beat the rap, but not the ride.

EDIT TO ADD: Here is the definition of defense to prosecution in the penal code.

§ 2.03. DEFENSE. (a) A defense to prosecution for an
offense in this code is so labeled by the phrase: "It is a defense
to prosecution . . . ."
(b) The prosecuting attorney is not required to negate the
existence of a defense in the accusation charging commission of the
offense.
(c) The issue of the existence of a defense is not submitted
to the jury unless evidence is admitted supporting the defense.
(d) If the issue of the existence of a defense is submitted
to the jury, the court shall charge that a reasonable doubt on the
issue requires that the defendant be acquitted.
(e) A ground of defense in a penal law that is not plainly
labeled in accordance with this chapter has the procedural and
evidentiary consequences of a defense.

[MasterOfNone]

So if a business is 51% but is not posted at each entrance, the CHL holder has a defense under PC 46.035(k). In the case of this bowling alley, if the entrance to the bowling alley is not posted, there is no issue for the CHL, even if the alley really was 51%.

Remember, this is a defense to prosecution not arrest. So, while you are right and they legally must post this or we have a defense to prosecution, there could be a issue with an officer who decides they are not sure about the law and takes you in and lets the DA determine if they want to charge you. Yes, you should beat the rap, but not the ride.

As with any law, a cop who doesn't know the law could arrest you. The only way to avoid that is to not go anywhere that a cop may be.