FTF transfer

[RAM4171]

I've got a question, more of a what would you do? than a what is leagal.
I'm looking to sell a pistol, which I will post in the classifieds on the forum later today after I finish my honeydo's. what is the consensus on having a bill of sale/transfer like the one shown below? I only want to do an FTF as I don't want to deal with shipping and all the entails. I do want to cover my rear, just wondering if this is overkill and I would offend the buyer. I know that I wouldn't be offended. What do ya'll think?

Bill of Sale
Transfer of Ownership

For $_____ _ received, I, (seller’s name here), have sold to (buyer's name here)
_______________________________________________ firearm description here, Serial # ____________________________
Any other accessories here

I represent that this ___________ is not stolen. I am the owner of the _______ listed above. If it can be shown now or in the future that this _______ was stolen prior to the date listed below, I will give the buyer a full refund for return of the _______ and all accessories listed above.

Sold as is.
No warranty is expressed or implied by the Seller.
Seller assumes no responsibility after transfer of ownership has taken place.
Seller assumes no responsibility of any/all aftermarket parts added to the ___________.
Seller assumes no responsibility of any/all original equipment parts on the ________.
Buyer assumes all responsibility when transfer of ownership has taken place.

Seller specifically disclaims any warranties of merchantability or of fitness for a particular purpose of this ________ and disclaims all responsibility for consequential and/or incidental damages or any other losses arising from the use of said _________.

Buyer agrees to the terms and conditions set forth and listed on this document, and acknowledges that he has received a true copy of this Bill of Sale/Transfer of Ownership and certifies that he is 21 years of age or older. Buyer acknowledges and understands that he will read the Owner’s Manual. Buyer agrees that it will be his responsibility when transfer of ownership has taken place to adjust, check, and follow all instructions as outlined in the Owner’s Manual. Buyer attests that he is able to legally buy and possess firearms.

Buyer: Name Here
Seller: Name Here

Date:_________________________

Buyer: _____________________________
Address:____________________________
Phone #: ____________________________
Seller: ______________________________
Address: ____________________________
Phone #: ____________________________

[cheezit]

the few ftf deals I have doen in texas all went like this.
heres your money
heres your new wepon.
part ways.

[RAM4171]

I gotcha. the only reason I post this is because of a recomendation by a gun store clerk in reference to the paper trail that would lead to me if the weapon was ever used in a crime. I know we don't register guns in TEXAS , but there is a trail that leads to me. Is it paranoid or prepared?

[Bart]

the few ftf deals I have doen in texas all went like this.
heres your money
heres your new wepon.
part ways.

The polite thing is to state any special circumstances in your ad. If you want them to sign a bill of sale. If you will only sell to someone with a Texas CHL. If you want to be paid in silver coins. If you can only meet between 2am and 3am during a full moon. Whatever your requirements are, being polite and stating everything up front is going to make for a better transaction for everyone.

[BrianSW99]

I've never required a bill of sale for any of the ones I've sold. I've left it up to the buyer and asked if they want one. Not one has taken me up on it yet. If you purchased the gun from an FFL, it's possible it might could be traced back to you if it was used in a crime, but I'm not sure how likely it is.

In any case, I don't think it would be a big deal. If someone shows up asking about it, just tell them you sold it. There's no legal requirement to have a record of who you sold it to. Many people buy from private individuals because they consider it an advantage to not have any written records of the transfer.

Brian

[The Annoyed Man]

I gotcha. the only reason I post this is because of a recomendation by a gun store clerk in reference to the paper trail that would lead to me if the weapon was ever used in a crime. I know we don't register guns in TEXAS , but there is a trail that leads to me. Is it paranoid or prepared?

It doesn't really matter if a paper trail leads to you or not. If the gun was sold by you FTF, you are no longer responsible for what happens to it, or what it was used for. I would argue that paper trails in firearms ownership are a bad thing... ...sort of a sub-rosa version of registration. I'd rather not have to fill out a 4473 at all when I buy a brand new gun, but I have to. Since the law does not require me to further account for its ownership after I've bought it, then it isn't any of the gubmint's darn business what I do with it afterwards, as long as I haven't committed a crime with it, and unless I transfer it through another FFL for sale to another buyer. If that gun gets used in a crime, it's not nothing to do with me. If it is one where a 4473 leads directly to me, my answer is, "I sold it," plain and simple.

I've purchased 3 firearms in FTF sales since I got to Texas, and sold 2. Actually, one of the buys and one of the sells were a trade of my .38 revolver plus some cash to another guy in exchange for his .357 revolver. The other guy is a member of this forum. The other gun I sold was a USP Compact which I also sold to a member of this forum. Two of the others were a .22 caliber rifle bought from a business acquaintance, and a 5" Springfield bought from a forum member whom I didn't know personally at the time, but who has since become one of my very good friends. All of the transactions except my purchase of the .22 rifle involved other members of this forum. Another friend of mine from my church wants to buy either or both my P3AT and/or my Colt Government .380. He has a CHL too.

See the pattern here? I only buy/sell firearms in FTF transactions from or to people I either know personally, or people who I can be pretty sure pass the CHL sniff test - like other members of this forum. Then I don't worry about whether I'm buying a stolen weapon, or whether I'm selling one of my guns to somebody who is going to use it in a crime. Like BrianSW99, I have asked if the other person wanted to make out and sign a bill of sale, or look at my ID, but nobody has ever wanted to.

OTH, if a gun of mine was ever stolen from me, you can bet your double bippy that I would report it as stolen to the police, whether or not I had purchased it from a FFL. To that end, and also for insurance purposes, I keep a spreadsheet list of all my firearms with the description, serial number, and a picture for each one.

[RPB]

the few ftf deals I have doen in texas all went like this.
heres your money
heres your new wepon.
part ways.

Similar, mine was:

you do have a CHL right?
yes here ... (Starts to hand it to me)
Oh I don't need to hold it, put it away, I was just askin' I'm not going to Xerox it or anything out here in the parking lot, I'm sure it says the same stuff mine does. Look I have one too (Quick Flash for his peace of mind, and immediately put back in pocket)
Optional chatter: Now, if you were buying used tennis shoes from me I'd need identification Driver's license, Voter's registration, Social Security Number and 90 days of Utility bills showing current residency, because every criminal wears shoes, but there's no need for that as you have what looks to be a CHL.
P.M. me if you have any problem with it or decide to sell it, I may buy it back, it was reliable, I liked it, whatever, I'm on the forum.
here's your money,
here's your new weapon.
Nice meetin' you .... you too.

(Everyone gets in the cars, drives off and forgets "real names" and maybe we meet at the range weeks/months/years later and chat/meet again.)

If it is one where a 4473 leads directly to me, my answer is, "I sold it," plain and simple.

If asked to whom .... Id be honest and say "A guy in front of a muffler shop/Walmart/toy store/Sears"
If asked to describe him, I'd comply "Five years ago, he was male, I hear they can "change" that now, but I recall he had hair on his head, don't recall what color, but don't think it was pink, also on that day 5 years ago, he had on blue jeans, but he may have changed clothes since then."

[Pawpaw]

I knew I had seen a bill of sale posted before. It took some searching, but here it is: http://texasguntrader.com/billofsale.pdf

To answer one of your questions, it would not offend me. I don't understand why anyone would be offended, unless it was a friend. It actually makes good sense and helps protect both parties.

[Thomas]

If you are really paranoid, clean the gun very thoroughly while wearing a set of gloves, so that if the gun is used in a crime, the police do not have your prints on the murder weapon.

[srothstein]

I gotcha. the only reason I post this is because of a recommendation by a gun store clerk in reference to the paper trail that would lead to me if the weapon was ever used in a crime. I know we don't register guns in TEXAS , but there is a trail that leads to me. Is it paranoid or prepared?

Yes, there is a paper trail leading back to you. But it is not used very often and is not reliable. The trail starts with the manufacturer who lists which distributor he shipped the weapon to. They have to maintain which dealer they sent the weapon to. The dealer has a 4473 which lists the original buyer of the new gun. If that is you, the ATF would call you and ask where the gun is. There is no legal requirement for you to assist them, but even more is that there is no legal requirement for you to be able to help them. Tell them the truth that you sold the weapon but you don't have the name of the buyer and the trail ends.

One of the agencies I worked for was contacted by ATF about one of their old pistols. They gave me the dealer we bought it from and the make, model, and serial number. We had sold the gun over ten years earlier and had no record of where (no records that old had been kept). I told them that we no longer had the records and they said OK. I did suggest that since we had made the last two purchases through GT's, it was possible that the gun had been traded in there on an earlier purchase also, but I could not verify. They thanked me and said they would call back if they needed any more information. I never heard from them again and I don't know if they did contact GT's or not.

[rm9792]

You may also ship direct to someone within the state (no ffl), not really any hassles. They send you the money and you ship them the pistol. Most people dont want to do this but it is legal. I have swapped/sold with members on this board this way with no problems whatsoever.

[Mike1951]

You may also ship direct to someone within the state (no ffl), not really any hassles. They send you the money and you ship them the pistol. Most people dont want to do this but it is legal. I have swapped/sold with members on this board this way with no problems whatsoever.

But as has been discussed before, while legal, neither UPS, Fedex, Lone Star Express, Greyhound nor any other carrier will accept a handgun for intrastate shipment to a non-FFL if it is correctly presented to them as containing a handgun.

[G26ster]

...while legal, neither UPS, Fedex, Lone Star Express, Greyhound nor any other carrier will accept a handgun for intrastate shipment to a non-FFL if it is correctly presented to them as containing a handgun.

How would they know if the addressee is a FFL or not?

[Bullwhip]

...while legal, neither UPS, Fedex, Lone Star Express, Greyhound nor any other carrier will accept a handgun for intrastate shipment to a non-FFL if it is correctly presented to them as containing a handgun.

How would they know if the addressee is a FFL or not?

They want a copy of the FFL's license, they compare the name and address.

[Salty1]

I write up a Bill of Sale for every private sale that I make. It is not as nearly as complicated as yours, it is simply a sold by, sold to, date, description and seriel number. I show my identification which is listed on the Bill of Sale and have them write theirs in, double check that ID and info listed is the same and it is done. Is this necessary, technically no, I do it for my own peace of mind.