Dallas and the ACOE

[TxKimberMan]

Here’s a theoretical question which could concern folks in the Dallas area…

Dallas is planning to create parks and toll roads inside the Trinity River levees,
and that area is controlled by the Army Corps of Engineers. (They have stated they
have the sole authority to determine where/how the road supports will be placed).

If this project ever moves forward and gets built, if you were driving on this toll road armed, would
you be in violation of the law due to ACOE prohibitions? How about the parks? The authority having
jurisdiction seems a little fuzzy here to me.

[RPB]

Just like canoeing/kayaking/boating the San Gabriel river, controlled by Brazos River authority where you CAN carry, runs through numerous USACE lakes, where you CAN'T carry ....
You'll need to have someone meet you at the beginning of EACH toll road to accept your firearm, then meet you on the other end to return it to you. (Of course being careful to not "intentionally fail to conceal" while making the transfers, disarming and getting dressed again, which would violate Texas law.)

You can't carry in USACE parks, nope.

As a matter of fact, when I contacted them last year, the Fort Worth USACE said you can't have one in your car in their park's parking lot either..

Doesn't matter if you have a CHL, carry under the MPA or any "State" law ... none in the car on their property.
So, none in your car on their toll road ... http://www.swf.usace.army.mil/pubdata/contactus.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Of course there are exceptions for shootin' ranges, disassembled guns or whatever, I haven't re-studied it lately, but mere possession of a shotgun is a "presumption" you were hunting illegally or something. That was in one park's rules/regs)

My layman's opinion is worth every cent you paid for it but ...... it's just "common sense"

[MojoTexas]

Concealed means concealed...just sayin'.

If someone had a CHL, and used their concealed handgun to defend their life on an Army Corps Of Engineers property, and they were arrested, it could possibly serve as a test case to get the policy changed. Hopefully the NRA or some similar group would help with pro bono legal defense.

Kind of the story of the 80-year-old Korean war veteran who shot and killed a home invader with an "illegally" owned handgun. (See http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/26/ye ... e-invader/ for the story...) Even though the veteran was technically breaking the law, he was defending his home and I don't believe any charges were ever filed against him, even in one of the most anti-gun liberal cities in the country.

I tend to avoid the ACOE properties, but I am also not going to lose any sleep if I unknowingly venture onto one of those properties with my concealed handgun. What's the old saying about, "I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six?"

MojoTexas

[couzin]

Don't get wound up guys - the construction and permitting by the US Army Corps of Engineers is not Federal ownership. The Corps is just conducting environmental work, preparing permits, designing, and constructing - it is just like hiring a regular design and build company. Corps does these kinds of jobs all the time and are hired just like any other company.

[Oldgringo]

Don't get wound up guys - the construction and permitting by the US Army Corps of Engineers is not Federal ownership. The Corps is just conducting environmental work, preparing permits, designing, and constructing - it is just like hiring a regular design and build company. Corps does these kinds of jobs all the time and are hired just like any other company.

Mrs.Oldgringo and I both turned 69 this past week. If the USACE moves with its usual alacrity, we'll start worrying about our armed bicycles on these paths sometime around our 85th birthdays.

You noted the bicycles, did you? Good, there won't be no gas for cars and motorboats when these paths get built and the tolls will be paid to the Chinese army folk at the entrances.

[couzin]

Dallas is planning to create parks and toll roads inside the Trinity River levees,
and that area is controlled by the Army Corps of Engineers. (They have stated they
have the sole authority to determine where/how the road supports will be placed).

Let me clarify - it is not an area controlled by the US Army Corps of Engineers. Rather, if a project (city, State, Federal, Joe Kayak) is planned for a navigatable waterway or designated wetlands, USACE is the Clean Water Act permitting (Section 404) entity. USACE does not own any of the land there unless they have bought the land in fee simple (deed/title just like anybody else). USACE has not stated they have "sole authority" on the placement of road supports. Instead, it is a matter of impacting the integrity of the levee system and the potential failure if the supports are constructed or placed wrong. If USACE determines the levees have been adversely impacted - the levee system can lose its certification and that loss will impact those homes and businesses in the FEMA designated floodplains.

If this project ever moves forward and gets built, if you were driving on this toll road armed, would
you be in violation of the law due to ACOE prohibitions? How about the parks?

No - USACE does not and will not own or manage any part of the Trinity Floodway project nor any tollroad there - 36CFR327 nor any other Federal regulation or Statute regarding weapons will apply because the Federal government does not/will not own the land. Again - it is simple permitting (and design/build if the Corps is hired to do any of the work. The city of Dallas can complete the whole thing by themselves without any participation by USACE -- except the city would still have to meet all environmental regulations, design and build specifications, and obtain the required permits.

[ScottDLS]

I do not recommend willfully violating any law or regulation of the United States or any State. However, it seems that the criminal penalty for violating 36CFR327 is a $500 fine. I have not been able to determine what the criminal statute is that a civilian (including a Fireman ) would be charged with for carrying on USACOE or other DoD property. 18USC930 applies to federal facilities and is a federal misdemeanor with up to 1 year in jail, but that isn't "property". As many of our TXCHLForum members are fond of saying...what's the "case law" on carrying on USACOE "lands"?

[TxKimberMan]

Here’s a theoretical question which could concern folks in the Dallas area…

Dallas is planning to create parks and toll roads inside the Trinity River levees,
and that area is controlled by the Army Corps of Engineers. (They have stated they
have the sole authority to determine where/how the road supports will be placed).

If this project ever moves forward and gets built, if you were driving on this toll road armed, would
you be in violation of the law due to ACOE prohibitions? How about the parks? The authority having
jurisdiction seems a little fuzzy here to me.

Thanks for the responses. From the stories I've heard/read in the media, I was under the impression ACOE had taken the stance that Dallas wasn't doing ANYTHING in this area without their blessing. The highlighted portion above was the source of my confusion.

[gdanaher]

The whole matter is entirely moot. In the early 1950's, some brain surgeons in the California Department of Transportation had a great idea and began laying pavement in the bed of the Los Angeles River. They were going to turn it into a freeway. After all if you don't know, the LA River is usually an underground river and the water table does not rise to a point of visibility until there is a severe rain, and it never rains in California. Anyway, it did rain, and the freeway was abandoned. Here in Dallas, the Trinity is generally a gentle stream carrying raw sewage down to the coast, but when it rains anywhere, even in Wyoming, the Trinity goes to full flood in a matter of a few hours and can stay that way for days. There is no way that anyone is going to pour a concrete highway within the Trinity River levy system and expect it to actually be useful. So.........don't get your panties in a wad about the concealed carry rules in the Trinty basin. It just isn't going to happen.

[Mel]

The whole matter is entirely moot. There is no way that anyone is going to pour a concrete highway within the Trinity River levy system and expect it to actually be useful. So.........don't get your panties in a wad about the concealed carry rules in the Trinty basin. It just isn't going to happen.

Obviously you are too young to remember the "RiverLake Country Club". It was built in the Trinity River Basin because it hadn't flooded in many years. 3 years later it was under water. Never overestimate the use of "Logic" when it comes to local governments (especially Dallas).

[TxKimberMan]

So.........don't get your panties in a wad about the concealed carry rules in the Trinty basin. It just isn't going to happen.

Who's "panties" are "in a wad"?

As previously stated, it was a theoretical question. I'm sure there was no civil engineering studies for the purpose of flood control, seeing as how this was one of the goals of the project.

I avoid toll roads like the plague anyway.

[gdanaher]

No panties should be in a wad. The whole concept of putting a toll road inside the levee system is comical and is best suited for a Three Stooges short. It is highly unlikely that anything will ever come from this concept, so being concerned that CHL holders will be violating some rule while driving on a never to be built highway is a wasteful use of time and energy. In the mean time, remember that the legislature is in session, so hide your family in a safe place, lock up your barnyard animals, and hope they pass no laws affecting the topic of this board's discussion.

[TxKimberMan]

The whole concept of putting a toll road inside the levee system is comical and is best suited for a Three Stooges short.

The proposed toll roads would be elevated, not on grade. There are plenty of roads crossing the Trinity now. The project, from an engineering standpoint is very doable, however I don't see the funding being as doable.

Edit to add: http://www.trinityrivercorridor.com/htm ... _plan.html

Transportation initiatives related to the Trinity River Corridor Project include the following: Trinity Parkway, S .M . Wright Freeway Improvements, Sylvan Avenue Bridge, Industrial Boulevard (name change to Riverfront Boulevard in late 2009), Beckley Avenue Improvements, other pedestrian oriented improvements related to trails and bike paths.

Note: The Oak Cliff levee top road, as described in the originally approved Balanced Vision Plan from 2003, will not be constructed due to concerns from the U .S . Army Corps of Engineers. The Balanced Vision Plan document shown on the Trinity River Corridor Project web site is presented in its original format without alteration.

It seems that ACOE appears to have a little more say in what's going on here than some people have stated.

[couzin]

Note: The Oak Cliff levee top road, as described in the originally approved Balanced Vision Plan from 2003, will not be constructed due to concerns from the U .S . Army Corps of Engineers.

It seems that ACOE appears to have a little more say in what's going on here than some people have stated.

No - that is what I said - USACE has approval over any plans where there is a Clean water act requirement/permit, or where the certification of the levee system is being changed because of impacts that may cause a levee fail. A violation of the CWA will get an entity a court challenge and/or fines - building something on top of the levee or placing supports where it is likely to cause failure of the levee will get the system decertified (doesn't stop someone from doing it - they would lose Federal funds and the levee system would no longer have FEMA coverage. The Corps did not build the entire levee system in the Trinity but they are still certifying them. The toll road system itself is supposed to have several alternatives, one of which is a raised roadway on the inside of the levees, and another on the outside of the levees (and other alternatives as well), the one preferred by the city and TXDOT (apparently) is inside the levees. BTW - the floodplain, the impacts by the Trinity parks project, the roadway, all of it, has been studied to death!!) - I was in the mix.

Regardless - the tollway does not impact a person's right to carry - either with a CHL or without.