Police stop behavior

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Police stop behavior

Post by The Annoyed Man »

I'm a little late to this thread, but I've had a change in the past 8 or 10 months of how I might handle things if stopped again.....

I used to keep my TDL and CHL in a separate small leather folding ID holder. It flips open and will display both IDs. I used to keep this ID holder in my shirt pocket so that, if asked for ID, the officer could see my hands at all time while producing it, and my hands never went anywhere near my gun. This system was put to the test only once (I've only ever been stopped once in the 5 years since I got here), and it worked quite well for me.

The officer came to my window, which by the time he got there my window was down and my hands were on the wheel. Because I was coming from just having had a chiropractor's appointment, I just had gym shorts, pocket t-shirt, and sandals on, and my gun, along with the rest of my usual pocket stuffers, was in a Maxpedition Fatboy-S "man bag" slung over my shoulder. My ID holder was in my t-shirt pocket. He was able to observe me removing the ID from my shirt pocket. He asked me to removed them from the holder before handing them over. I did so. He asked where the gun was; I pointed to the man bag which was on my left side, slung over my left shoulder. He asked me to not go there during stop, and I smiled and said "no problem." He thanked me, and the stop went smoothly.

Now, here's why I no longer use that ID holder.... I'm 58 years old, and I used to smoke a lot of pot and take LSD back in the 60s and 70s, and I find that many of my brain cells are pitiful and tattered smoking ruins of their former glory. On several occasions before leaving the house, I did the inventory check: "spectacles, 'manticles,' wallet, and keys," ....check! Status? Good. OK, let's roll. I get to my destination only to realize that my ID holder is still back on my dresser at home, and here I am, sporting a loaded gun around with no ID onboard.
:shock:

After having done that 2 or 3 times over a two year period, I decided to put my IDs back in my regular wallet—which I never leave at home because I always pat my pockets and do my "spectacles, 'manticles,' wallet, and keys" inventory before leaving. However, the change-up demands new procedures if stopped by a cop. What to do? Here's what I came up with......

Like a lot of guys, I carry too much crap in my wallet, consequently, it's not nice and flat, and sitting on it is like sitting on a softball. (Only the Lord knows why I feel the need to carry my NRA card or my CVS pharmacy discount card around, as well as other sundry rarely ever needed items such as Costco/Sam's Club/Gym Membership cards, but I am a typically confused male....) Anyhoo... My car has a sort of pocket located in the top of the left armrest on the driver's door, just behind and below the inside door opener. So when I get into the car, my wallet goes into that pocket on the armrest. It is immediately visible and available if needed; it is held securely while driving, my poor back doesn't have to suffer the slings and arrows of sitting on it, and I have to set my hand on it to open the door, so I don't forget it when I get out of the car.

Hopefully, I won't have to test it for another 5 years.

Oh... and I don't argue with cops or try to make their job harder than it needs to be because that's just dumb. Arguing with a cop simply escalates the situation and you can never "win." They can respond to my escalation by calling backup. I can't get backup until after I'm booked in, and it costs a LOT of money....which I don't have much of. Plus, I'm willing to entertain the possibility that maybe, just maybe, I might have done something wrong. I truly do not understand people who get their back up at the slightest perceived insult to their "sovereignty" and turn it into some kind of drama queen confrontation. Perhaps it's because I believe that only God is truly sovereign, and it is my calling to submit to that truth each and every minute of each and every day.
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Scott in Houston
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Re: Police stop behavior

Post by Scott in Houston »

I don't think it's ok to post the link here because of the language involved in the skit, so do this.

Google Chris Rock Police. Find the video "how not to get..."

It's HILARIOUS if you don't mind some swearing.
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Excaliber
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Re: Police stop behavior

Post by Excaliber »

srothstein wrote:
speedsix wrote:I don't know why TXDPS would say consult your local law enforcement...it's a STATE law that we notify them each time they ask for ID...as some have said, it's simplest to hand over ID/Dr.Lic and CHL when requested...and let him take it from there.
Just a fine point that might clarify this a little. There is no state law requiring you to verbally inform the officer of anything. The law requires you to produce both the CHL and the ID/TXDL when asked, and then only if you are actually armed.

I agree that telling him is good advice, just as I agree that producing both even when you are not armed is also good advice, even though not legally required.

One of my (many) complaints about the way our laws are written is that you are required to produce the CHL, and the officer has the legal authority to disarm you, but you are not required to answer his question of whether or not you are carrying. Remembering that this is an academic discussion of what the law requires and not advice for behavior on the street, have you ever wondered what happens to a person who tries to obey the law but is not going to be cooperative other than that? He is stopped for something and asked for his DL. He gives up both his DL and his CHL. The officer asks if he is carrying and he states that he does not answer any questions from police without his lawyer, other than those required by law.

Besides the eventual ticket for whatever the stop was originally for, what authority does the cop have to do any more? How does he legally justify the search to see if there is a weapon to disarm the person?
He might say that he has stopped hundreds of people with CHL's who either told him they were carrying without being asked or readily answered his question honestly. Then he might add that the subject's tension, hostility, and body language in combination with the very unusual refusal to answer when looked at as a totality of circumstances gave him enough concern for his safety that he felt it necessary to remove the subject from the vehicle, conduct a frisk for a weapon, and disarm him for the duration of the stop.

I think very few judges would give him a hard time over that call.
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Re: Police stop behavior

Post by Fangs »

I'm a speed-a-holic. I usually know when I'm being pulled over. No tickets on my record, but plenty I've taken care of through defensive driving or by having a heart to heart with the DA.

My wallet's too bulky to sit on, so I drop it in a convenient slot in my center console when I'm driving.

I've always had my TXDL/CHL (since I got it 3 years ago) hanging out the window with my insurance. Two hands always visible, outside the window, keys on the dash/roof, dome lights on when dark out.

Never had an officer comment on my "pulled over procedure," though once a State Trooper came up on my passenger side. I apologized for not pulling over far enough for him to feel comfortable, and he proceeded to write me a ticket for 5 over. :grumble

But all in all, good contacts with LEOs. :tiphat:
"When I was a kid, people who did wrong were punished, restricted, and forbidden. Now, when someone does wrong, all of the rest of us are punished, restricted, and forbidden. The one who did the wrong is counselled and "understood" and fed ice cream." - speedsix
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Re: Police stop behavior

Post by wgoforth »

Throw another aspect into this mix. Tom Gresham on Gun Talk is not a politcial radical, he just loves shooting sports... so it caught my attention when he was talking about auto searches. He said that when an ossicer asks "May I search your vehicle" that he suggests to everyone say "Yes... when you get a search warrant." He said that he does this to slow down the expansion of unreasonable search and seizures. I can see that point, but I can also see that if they have to wait, and maybe bring dogs that will scratch my car, I don't know which is the "greater good" here. I know my son was asked if they could search his car, and once he said "yes" they decided they didn't need to. Ideas?
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Re: Police stop behavior

Post by WildBill »

wgoforth wrote:Throw another aspect into this mix. Tom Gresham on Gun Talk is not a politcial radical, he just loves shooting sports... so it caught my attention when he was talking about auto searches. He said that when an ossicer asks "May I search your vehicle" that he suggests to everyone say "Yes... when you get a search warrant." He said that he does this to slow down the expansion of unreasonable search and seizures. I can see that point, but I can also see that if they have to wait, and maybe bring dogs that will scratch my car, I don't know which is the "greater good" here. I know my son was asked if they could search his car, and once he said "yes" they decided they didn't need to. Ideas?
I have never been asked, but I think "Yes ... when you get a search warrant" is a good response. What is the downside? The chances are that he won't have enough probable cause to get a search warrant, so he will let you go. If you say yes and they find something, you are hosed. If you have to wait, you have to wait. If they bring a dog, they bring a dog. Maybe if I owned a new Mercedes, I would have a different answer. ;-)
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Re: Police stop behavior

Post by speedsix »

...on this tangent...how long can they detain you while they bring a dog??? My answer would be NO to a a search...they wouldn't even find used bubble gum in my truck...but it'd take me half a day to repack it...and if the dog "alerts" they can tear it all out and then walk away...after they find NOTHING... :grumble :grumble :grumble I don't like it at all...
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Re: Police stop behavior

Post by sjfcontrol »

wgoforth wrote:Throw another aspect into this mix. Tom Gresham on Gun Talk is not a politcial radical, he just loves shooting sports... so it caught my attention when he was talking about auto searches. He said that when an ossicer asks "May I search your vehicle" that he suggests to everyone say "Yes... when you get a search warrant." He said that he does this to slow down the expansion of unreasonable search and seizures. I can see that point, but I can also see that if they have to wait, and maybe bring dogs that will scratch my car, I don't know which is the "greater good" here. I know my son was asked if they could search his car, and once he said "yes" they decided they didn't need to. Ideas?
I wouldn't advise the "Yes, when you get a warrant" answer. I would think it likely that the search would begin after the "Yes" part, and the officer would (might) just ignore the rest. The officer would claim (testify) the person gave permission. I also don't think you can withdraw permission after having agreed to the search.
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WildBill
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Re: Police stop behavior

Post by WildBill »

sjfcontrol wrote:
wgoforth wrote:Throw another aspect into this mix. Tom Gresham on Gun Talk is not a politcial radical, he just loves shooting sports... so it caught my attention when he was talking about auto searches. He said that when an ossicer asks "May I search your vehicle" that he suggests to everyone say "Yes... when you get a search warrant." He said that he does this to slow down the expansion of unreasonable search and seizures. I can see that point, but I can also see that if they have to wait, and maybe bring dogs that will scratch my car, I don't know which is the "greater good" here. I know my son was asked if they could search his car, and once he said "yes" they decided they didn't need to. Ideas?
I wouldn't advise the "Yes, when you get a warrant" answer. I would think it likely that the search would begin after the "Yes" part, and the officer would (might) just ignore the rest. The officer would claim (testify) the person gave permission. I also don't think you can withdraw permission after having agreed to the search.
Maybe, but I think that is stretching it a bit thin. If the LEO is going to lie, he's going to lie. He doesn't really the "Yes, but" as a "reason."
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Re: Police stop behavior

Post by sjfcontrol »

WildBill wrote:
sjfcontrol wrote:
wgoforth wrote:Throw another aspect into this mix. Tom Gresham on Gun Talk is not a politcial radical, he just loves shooting sports... so it caught my attention when he was talking about auto searches. He said that when an ossicer asks "May I search your vehicle" that he suggests to everyone say "Yes... when you get a search warrant." He said that he does this to slow down the expansion of unreasonable search and seizures. I can see that point, but I can also see that if they have to wait, and maybe bring dogs that will scratch my car, I don't know which is the "greater good" here. I know my son was asked if they could search his car, and once he said "yes" they decided they didn't need to. Ideas?
I wouldn't advise the "Yes, when you get a warrant" answer. I would think it likely that the search would begin after the "Yes" part, and the officer would (might) just ignore the rest. The officer would claim (testify) the person gave permission. I also don't think you can withdraw permission after having agreed to the search.
Maybe, but I think that is stretching it a bit thin. If the LEO is going to lie, he's going to lie. He doesn't really the "Yes, but" as a "reason."
It wouldn't be a lie. You gave permission, then tried to attach strings.
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Re: Police stop behavior

Post by WildBill »

sjfcontrol wrote:
WildBill wrote:
sjfcontrol wrote:
wgoforth wrote:Throw another aspect into this mix. Tom Gresham on Gun Talk is not a politcial radical, he just loves shooting sports... so it caught my attention when he was talking about auto searches. He said that when an ossicer asks "May I search your vehicle" that he suggests to everyone say "Yes... when you get a search warrant." He said that he does this to slow down the expansion of unreasonable search and seizures. I can see that point, but I can also see that if they have to wait, and maybe bring dogs that will scratch my car, I don't know which is the "greater good" here. I know my son was asked if they could search his car, and once he said "yes" they decided they didn't need to. Ideas?
I wouldn't advise the "Yes, when you get a warrant" answer. I would think it likely that the search would begin after the "Yes" part, and the officer would (might) just ignore the rest. The officer would claim (testify) the person gave permission. I also don't think you can withdraw permission after having agreed to the search.
Maybe, but I think that is stretching it a bit thin. If the LEO is going to lie, he's going to lie. He doesn't really the "Yes, but" as a "reason."
It wouldn't be a lie. You gave permission, then tried to attach strings.
I hope you're not serious.
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Re: Police stop behavior

Post by sjfcontrol »

WildBill wrote:
sjfcontrol wrote:
WildBill wrote:
sjfcontrol wrote:
wgoforth wrote:Throw another aspect into this mix. Tom Gresham on Gun Talk is not a politcial radical, he just loves shooting sports... so it caught my attention when he was talking about auto searches. He said that when an ossicer asks "May I search your vehicle" that he suggests to everyone say "Yes... when you get a search warrant." He said that he does this to slow down the expansion of unreasonable search and seizures. I can see that point, but I can also see that if they have to wait, and maybe bring dogs that will scratch my car, I don't know which is the "greater good" here. I know my son was asked if they could search his car, and once he said "yes" they decided they didn't need to. Ideas?
I wouldn't advise the "Yes, when you get a warrant" answer. I would think it likely that the search would begin after the "Yes" part, and the officer would (might) just ignore the rest. The officer would claim (testify) the person gave permission. I also don't think you can withdraw permission after having agreed to the search.
Maybe, but I think that is stretching it a bit thin. If the LEO is going to lie, he's going to lie. He doesn't really the "Yes, but" as a "reason."
It wouldn't be a lie. You gave permission, then tried to attach strings.
I hope you're not serious.
If I don't want to give permission for a search, I would not answer the question starting with the word "Yes". I am serious. You're playing games if you do.
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Re: Police stop behavior

Post by WildBill »

sjfcontrol wrote:I wouldn't advise the "Yes, when you get a warrant" answer. I would think it likely that the search would begin after the "Yes" part, and the officer would (might) just ignore the rest. The officer would claim (testify) the person gave permission. I also don't think you can withdraw permission after having agreed to the search.
WildBill wrote:Maybe, but I think that is stretching it a bit thin. If the LEO is going to lie, he's going to lie. He doesn't really the "Yes, but" as a "reason."
sjfcontrol wrote:It wouldn't be a lie. You gave permission, then tried to attach strings.
WildBill wrote:I hope you're not serious.
sjfcontrol wrote:If I don't want to give permission for a search, I would not answer the question starting with the word "Yes". I am serious. You're playing games if you do.
WildBill wrote:I agree that it might not be the best thing to say, but an LEO construing this as a blanket consent is wrong and illegal. Thinking that it is not a lie is inconceivable to me. A person can revoke their consent to search at any time and can attach conditions to their search, such as requiring a warrant or presence of an attorney.

Let me pose a question. Let's say you needed some money and said "Hey Wild Bill can you give me $20". And I said, "Yes, as long as you pay me back." You would say that I was lying if you didn't pay me and I said that you owed me $20? Is this playing games?
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Re: Police stop behavior

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wgoforth wrote:Throw another aspect into this mix. Tom Gresham on Gun Talk is not a politcial radical, he just loves shooting sports... so it caught my attention when he was talking about auto searches. He said that when an ossicer asks "May I search your vehicle" that he suggests to everyone say "Yes... when you get a search warrant." He said that he does this to slow down the expansion of unreasonable search and seizures. I can see that point, but I can also see that if they have to wait, and maybe bring dogs that will scratch my car, I don't know which is the "greater good" here. I know my son was asked if they could search his car, and once he said "yes" they decided they didn't need to. Ideas?
There is no way I would ever consent to a search for any reason. A key point to remember is if the officer is asking permission, then you can say no. If he has sufficient reason to demand a search, he doesn't need to ask your permission.

There have also been court decisions that detaining you for an excessive period of time without legal justification to detain you makes the search invalid, so they can't keep you forever waiting on a dog. IIRC, I've read of court cases that said without any other probable cause, they are really pushing it at any detention beyond 10 minutes. BTW, my key phrase is, "Am I being detained, or am I free to go?" I also use a voice recorder which would document the interchange.

I have three teenagers. All of them have been instructed to answer the old, "do you mind if we look in the car", with "My dad is the car owner and he said to tell you we are forbidden to allow someone to search his car."

I am confident my children are not using drugs (because Ronald Reagan is one of my heroes and I believe in "trust, but verify"). But my nightmare scenario is my kids could be driving one of my vehicles and have one of their friends drop or hide drugs somewhere in the car.

It is simply senseless for me or my family to consent to a search.
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Re: Police stop behavior

Post by wgoforth »

They were interviewing someone on GUNTALK who was pulled over, they believe, due to theie NRA and pro military stickers (this was after the DHS memo was sent out). They said they had to wait for 2 hours for the warrant, with threats of bringing in dogs that would scratch up their paint, and of course the "If you don't have anything to hide, why make us wait?"

I was thinking a search had to be something relative to a believed crime, and the warrant had to specify what they were searching for. How would this be applicable to a routine traffic stop?
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