Protecting a 3rd person - scenario

[KD5NRH]

- Middle of the afternoon in a crowded mall. Punk teenager gets caught attempting to steal something by a mall security guard. Teenager pulls a knife on the security guard and threatens the security guards life.

Well, as a security officer myself, I generally keep a digital camera handy even off duty, and I've made sure that I can work it left-handed specifically for off-duty situations. (Can't carry on duty.)

My response would be to use the camera's warm-up time to get my hand on my primary gun, (still under cover, though) then either get to a good spot for a nice high-res flash photo of the assailant's face, or get him to turn to me with a verbal command to drop the knife, and snap the photo. If he either freezes or runs, then we've got a photo of the assault effectively in progress with his face in full view. If he wants to commit aggravated robbery against me for the camera, then he's bringing a knife to a gunfight.

[kauboy]

I hold the very strict belief that if someone is wielding a knife, regardless of their size or the size of their opponent, they can be just as deadly with it as with a gun. Many people underestimate the threat a knife imposes. Some look at it and think about how they will just swat it away. Others see it and think, "How the heck am I going to stop him before he gets within range with that thing?"
The "21 foot rule" that TXI mentioned is a very real thing and its taught in most self defense courses. You must know the potential a knife has in the hands of an experienced user, and you can never assume that the kid your watching is just an amateur.

[kw5kw]

I hold the very strict belief that if someone is wielding a knife, regardless of their size or the size of their opponent, they can be just as deadly with it as with a gun. Many people underestimate the threat a knife imposes. Some look at it and think about how they will just swat it away. Others see it and think, "How the heck am I going to stop him before he gets within range with that thing?"
The "21 foot rule" that TXI mentioned is a very real thing and its taught in most self defense courses. You must know the potential a knife has in the hands of an experienced user, and you can never assume that the kid your watching is just an amateur.

[stevie_d_64]

I can actually imagine a high precentage outcome to a senario like this...

And for all practicality your mileage may vary, but use your own best judgement...

A knife wielding yute is more likely to be working with one or two more accomplices...So if they present a knife in a situation where you reasonably believe they will cause you harm, I would react accordingly...

If they (yutes) have an option to retreat from you (if you present them with the alternative, you know what I am talking about) they will probably take that option...And it will be a staggard retreat, one or more will leave at different intervals at the time of the incident...But again, that is based on some experience and understanding the psychy of that type of person...

But it really happens so fast you don't really have time to second guess or have time to do so in these cases...

You're just going to have to reasonably react within the confines of your training and understanding of the law...

Just remember...When you present your "option" to them, and they take off...Just let them go...Be a good witness, and get your story into the record as fast and as accurately as you can...

You will have done absolutely nothing wrong, and do not let anyone tell you or imply that you did...

But this is just my opinion...

[stevie_d_64]

I hold the very strict belief that if someone is wielding a knife, regardless of their size or the size of their opponent, they can be just as deadly with it as with a gun. Many people underestimate the threat a knife imposes. Some look at it and think about how they will just swat it away. Others see it and think, "How the heck am I going to stop him before he gets within range with that thing?"
The "21 foot rule" that TXI mentioned is a very real thing and its taught in most self defense courses. You must know the potential a knife has in the hands of an experienced user, and you can never assume that the kid your watching is just an amateur.

You betcha!

Didn't we practice that drill at PSC once??? It was called the "Tollar drill" (sp?)...

I recall "Paladin" was the "runner" and one of the ladies was the shooter...

He covered a ton of ground in that demonstration...And 21 feet was nothing to the ground he covered...

I believe its a good (and safe) drill to gauge your reaction speed to a distance threat...

I'd also set the target close to you in this type of drill...Like at about 3 yards tops...But thasts just my idea...I believe in real life you will be stopping a threat at that distance or even less in this type of situation...

[austin]

If its you under a threat and if its an edge weapon and someone is within twenty feet, then the choice is automatic - draw your weapon and acquire a sight picture. If they move towards you, you fire. The same goes if this is a relative or a friend under threat.

Someone else under threat gives you more time. In this case, you first look around and get situational awareness - who else is involved or watching. Then you can move into a position that allows you to think and observe and if need be, help out - first by calling 911. In this case, if you do draw and if you have to fire, you have time to move to get a better shooting position and to back up the security guard.

If you are with children, then you move them away while keeping an eye on the situation, then call 911.

Firing in a busy area is a tough call, but dropping to a knee and firing up can mitigate what the bullet does if you miss or it goes through the person. But thats not a sure bet and in a busy mall the risk is high that someone else will get hurt. Unless you are sure where the bullets could go, just be a good witness.

I was in a mall today and carrying and thinking about the angles and layouts and its very hard to make a shot in most scenarios without someone else getting hurt.

About the only way I could justify shooting in this case is if my wife was in danger or somone was on a rampage.

[lrb111]

Didn't we practice that drill at PSC once??? It was called the "Tollar drill" (sp?)...

I recall "Paladin" was the "runner" and one of the ladies was the shooter...

He covered a ton of ground in that demonstration...And 21 feet was nothing to the ground he covered...

I believe its a good (and safe) drill to gauge your reaction speed to a distance threat...

I'd also set the target close to you in this type of drill...Like at about 3 yards tops...But thasts just my idea...I believe in real life you will be stopping a threat at that distance or even less in this type of situation...

(lending a hand) Tueller Drill, for those that are going to look it up.
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tuel ... .Close.htm

[Venus Pax]

My parents both used to get onto me as a kid/teen for constantly getting involved in situations that "weren't our business" simply to diffuse it. It wasn't that they were being cold-hearted, but they saw their smallish daughter going into situations without thinking of the consequences.

I know today that I still have those leanings. I still want to stick up for the underdog since I've found myself to be the underdog in so many situations. My own CHL instructor put it perfectly: He told us that we don't necessarily know all the ins and outs of a situation when we hap upon it. Not only that, but our CHL does not train us to become instant officers--it trains us to protect OURSELVES.
Also, what would it do to my family if I were killed? What would it do to my family if I were sued? Not only would both scenarios affect my family during the course, but would affect them for years.

Personally, I would be a good witness in the situation. I know better than to think I can control bullets in a crowded mall built with materials that don't always stop/absorb lead.
I would call 911, get pictures if possible, and get all the information possible. If said knife-weilder wants to turn his attention to me (or to one of my relatives, since I know pretty well who has a right to go near them), then he's just messed with the wrong girl.

If said offender had a gun, I would take cover while doing all my calling, but my hand would be on my gun, and the safety would be promply removed.

Please remember something: a CHL is available to ANY law-abiding citizen that is 21 or over. At some point, people need to be responsible for THEMSELVES.
Also remember that the CHL is a highly controversial subject. That person you're wanting to rescue? He/she might just get up on the stand and slam you for your audacity to carry a concealed weapon in a public place. (After all, there are children around. )


If I may quote Longtooth, "That's my two cents. Some might think its worth half that." (but you're still getting it.)

[Odin]

Please remember something: a CHL is available to ANY law-abiding citizen that is 21 or over. At some point, people need to be responsible for THEMSELVES.

Exactly.

[HankB]

I didn't get a CHL with the least intention of playing cop, I got it for self protection. If I see a bad situation brewing, my inclination will be to leave, not hang around to sort things out.

I'll do whatever it takes to protect my family and a very few close friends, and I won't stand idly by and watch a machete-wielding jihadi chop up little kids waiting for a school bus, but it's going to take something pretty extreme for me to involve myself personally (beyond a 911 call) in a situation involving strangers.

Generally speaking, I am not going to inject myself and my firearm into a situation involving people I don't know for reasons that have already been covered in previous posts.

[kauboy]

I simply can't understand why so many people have a "self first" mentality. We are all here to help each other out. If you found yourself in a situation where you were not armed, and a knife was pulled on you, wouldn't you want help? Or would you rather have people stand around taking pictures and describing the stab wounds you just received to the 911 operator? Why are we becoming a society of isolationists? I was brought up to help my fellow man, whatever that may mean. Nobody is any better or worse than I. We all need help sometimes and this world would be a much better place if we didn't always turn our backs to the crime happening right in front of us, and convince ourselves that the 911 call we made that will send the cops in about half an hour is "all I can do." No we aren't cops, and I'm not suggesting we become vigilantes, but a turn around has to happen or we are all destined for ruin.

[casselthief]

word.

[seamusTX]

I simply can't understand why so many people have a "self first" mentality.

Every good reason that I can think of has already been mentioned, several times in some cases.

Here's the bottom line: Your first responsibility is to protect yourself and your family. I mean protect in every way. It won't do them good if you act heroically and then get killed, disabled, prosecuted, or sued into bankruptcy.

The legal system does not protect people who intervene in stranger-violence situations. You can find yourself held responsible (sometimes unfairly) for aggravating the situation that you were trying to help with.

Furthermore, the media may make you a hero or trash you, depending upon their mood; and the bad guy's buddies or family may come after you.

If you're single and willing to take the chance, it's your decision to make. But it isn't likely to turn out like a John Wayne movie.

Your motives are commendable, though. Maybe I'm too cynical.

- Jim

[kauboy]

Here's the bottom line: Your first responsibility is to protect yourself and your family. I mean protect in every way. It won't do them good if you act heroically and then get killed, disabled, prosecuted, or sued into bankruptcy.

You can sell that somewhere else. There is NO good reason to sit back and watch an innocent person get killed. I love my wife, and would die for her, but I WILL NOT let an innocent person die knowing that I may have been able to prevent it. Call it stupid if you want, I call it selflessness.

[txinvestigator]

[
The legal system does not protect people who intervene in stranger-violence situations. You can find yourself held responsible (sometimes unfairly) for aggravating the situation that you were trying to help with.

- Jim

Really? I would love to read your case law, statute, etc.