Traffic Stop-Passenger Carrying

[Scott in Houston]

A CD or spare tire is less likely to be used to kill him/her and leave the family behind...just food for thought. If I ask I usually ask about "guns, knives, improvised weapons, scud missles, circus clowns, or hand grenades" in the vehicle. Those that don't laugh are usually armed in some fashion.

Where in Texas do you work (patrol)? I think you've pulled me over.

[Hoi Polloi]

A CD or spare tire is less likely to be used to kill him/her and leave the family behind...just food for thought. If I ask I usually ask about "guns, knives, improvised weapons, scud missles, circus clowns, or hand grenades" in the vehicle. Those that don't laugh are usually armed in some fashion.

Where in Texas do you work (patrol)? I think you've pulled me over.

When I was reading up on consent searches the other day, many people wondered how officers get someone who is not detained to consent to a search after he's done with a traffic stop. This was how. As they're giving back the license & insurance, they ask if the person has any guns, knives, drugs, bombs, WMDs, or terrorists like Osama bin Laden in their car or similarly silly and outrageous things (like scud missiles and circus clowns). The person is legally free to leave at this point but does not feel socially free to leave because this is still part of the concluding conversation where an authority figure is chastising them and going over what needs to be done. From a legal standpoint, the detention conversation has ended and the search conversation begun, but the average driver is completely unaware of that. The driver says no, meaning he isn't hiding terrorists or what not, and the officer says, "You wouldn't mind my checking really quickly, would you?" Unless the person specifically says the officer may not search, they now have consent from a person who is free to leave.

[RoyGBiv]

I've been a passenger on a traffic stop. Local LEO, but on I-45 near Ennis. 80 in a 65, at night, IIRC. I turned on the dome lights while the driver took out his DL. LEO approached from passenger side and requested DL & insurance from driver. I kept my hands on my knee, said little. LEO was polite, gave my buddy a break on the speed, thanked us for pulling over so quickly and turning on the light, never asked me for ID so I didn't volunteer it. Maybe 10 minutes total time..

Amazingly, my gun did not jump out of my holster during the encounter.

I think I'd do the same again today..

If the LEO appeared to have reservations/suspicions about us, I might be inclined to volunteer my CHL as a passenger. Depends on my gut feeling and read of the situation. Maybe he thinks we fit a description of a BG on his watch list? Thinks we might be "up to something".... There's a difference between a LEO doing their job and one that's busting chops.... Usually you can tell, I think... I have no problem making it easier/less trouble for them to do their job. YMMV.

[speedsix]

...exactly, RoyGBiv...and if an officer was busting chops, I'd give him nothing...but I honestly haven't run into one of those attitudes in Texas...I've been here since '84...every stop I've had ranged from polite to friendly and no shenannigans...our LEOs are to be proud of...

[RoyGBiv]

...exactly, RoyGBiv...and if an officer was busting chops, I'd give him nothing...but I honestly haven't run into one of those attitudes in Texas...I've been here since '84...every stop I've had ranged from polite to friendly and no shenannigans...our LEOs are to be proud of...

I've only had two encounters with LEO's since moving here in '03... Both very professional.. The one I described above and one other in '04 when I was not carrying (going to work) and only had an out-of-state CHL... I didn't volunteer anything at that time, since I was not carrying and I assume he didn't have access to FL CHL records when he ran my TX DL..

Interestingly (but OT, sorry), I was ticked for driving on the shoulder. I did it to avoid waiting in a long line of cars waiting to go straight at a long light. I rolled the shoulder and turned right at the light. Less than 50 yards on the shoulder. A week or so later I'm waiting (patiently this time) in the same line of traffic and a car whizzes past me on the same shoulder where I got my ticket. Just a few cars ahead of me, I see a car coming from the opposite direction that's turning left through a gap that some polite folks made for him in the queue. There was a gas station entrance right there. I leaned on my horn, but, BAM!!... The car on the shoulder t-boned the guy turning left through traffic... I paid about $200 for the deferred adjudication on my ticket. I immediately realized the good Karma.. That ticket probably saved me from the same fate...

[djjoshuad]

The best advice my CHL instructor (former cop, former military) gave the class was to "let the cop run the stop". I have not been pulled over in some time, and never with a handgun in the vehicle, but I fully intend to follow that advice. If he asks, I answer truthfully. If he does not ask, I do not volunteer. Now that the law no longer requires us to present CHL during a traffic stop, this is a very easy policy to abide by. They know you have a CHL as soon as they run your license anyway.

One benefit to having a CHL is that it also serves as an "I regularly pass criminal background checks" card. I've had LEO buddies tell me that they are much more put at ease by the CHL than put on alert. Sure, you probably have a gun... but you're not a BG.

[74novaman]

If he does not ask, I do not volunteer. Now that the law no longer requires us to present CHL during a traffic stop, this is a very easy policy to abide by. They know you have a CHL as soon as they run your license anyway.

To get nit picky on you, the law still technically requires you provide your CHL. They just removed the penalty for failing to do so.

[Teamless]

Now that the law no longer requires us to present CHL during a traffic stop,

This law has NOT changed
You ARE required to present your CHL when you are asked for ID, as long as you are carrying a handgun.

what has changed is there is no longer a legal penalty for not doing so, but that is not to say that the officer may not detain you longer than you would like, since you hid the fact your had a CHL

[djjoshuad]

hmm... our instructor told us that it was no longer required by law for any reason unless the officer specifically asked if you were licensed to carry a weapon. He mentioned something about traffic stops being exempt from this line of questioning, since *every* law-abiding citizen is able to carry in their vehicle now. I need to look that up I guess :)

[Pawpaw]

GC §411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. (a) If a license
holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's
person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license
holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license
holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the
department and the license holder's handgun license.

[Teamless]

He mentioned something about traffic stops being exempt from this line of questioning, since *every* law-abiding citizen is able to carry in their vehicle now.

We can legally carry places others cant, but for that, we have to adhere to a stricter code and this is one area where it does not make sense as you say, since those that carry under MPA have no CHL to produce

[74novaman]

hmm... our instructor told us that it was no longer required by law for any reason unless the officer specifically asked if you were licensed to carry a weapon. He mentioned something about traffic stops being exempt from this line of questioning, since *every* law-abiding citizen is able to carry in their vehicle now. I need to look that up I guess :)

Looks like paw paw did it for you. If you do not have a CHL and have a gun in the vehicle, then you are carrying under the authority of the MPA and have no duty to inform. If you have a gun with you and have a CHL, you are carrying under the authority of the CHL and have a duty to inform. That's about as basically as it can be summed up I think.

I got pulled over recently for no front plate (but I had a front plate, so no ticket for me. ) and when I presented both my CHL and DL, the cop told me "you'd be surprised at how many people think they don't have to show me this now". I didn't feel like getting into a discussion of the difference between MPA and CHL and the fact that there is now no penalty for not having the CHL, so I just smiled.

[djjoshuad]

the current and complete text straight from the DPS website is as follows (and is slightly confusing):

GC §411.205.

DISPLAYING LICENSE; PENALTY.

(a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license. A person who fails or refuses to display the license and identification as required by this subsection is subject to suspension of the person's license as provided by Section 411.187.

But, then 411.187 provides no penalty (as you stated). It's too long to post it all here, but there is nothing in it about suspension of the license for failure to display. I'm sure this has been beaten to death on another thread here somewhere... so rather than get back into that I'll just be sure I display and avoid any issues :)

[AFRetSATX]

Thanks to everyone for their replies. I guess the most prudent course of action would be to sit quietly, hands in view, and not volunteer anything. If asked, show plastic and politely inform. Above all, be calm and courteous.

[ScottDLS]

the current and complete text straight from the DPS website is as follows (and is slightly confusing):

GC §411.205.

DISPLAYING LICENSE; PENALTY.

(a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license. A person who fails or refuses to display the license and identification as required by this subsection is subject to suspension of the person's license as provided by Section 411.187.

But, then 411.187 provides no penalty (as you stated). It's too long to post it all here, but there is nothing in it about suspension of the license for failure to display. I'm sure this has been beaten to death on another thread here somewhere... so rather than get back into that I'll just be sure I display and avoid any issues :)

That's an OLD version. Straight from Texas Statutes online and current as of the 2009 legislative session is:

Sec. 411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license.

Note, no reference to a penalty. Also the same in the 2009 CHL-16 booklet.