Protecting a 3rd person - scenario

[kauboy]

[
The legal system does not protect people who intervene in stranger-violence situations. You can find yourself held responsible (sometimes unfairly) for aggravating the situation that you were trying to help with.

Really? I would love to read your case law, statute, etc.

Hey, thats right, the law does offer some protections for this doesn't it? So, I'd like to see your evidence too.

[txinvestigator]

[
The legal system does not protect people who intervene in stranger-violence situations. You can find yourself held responsible (sometimes unfairly) for aggravating the situation that you were trying to help with.

Really? I would love to read your case law, statute, etc.

Hey, thats right, the law does offer some protections for this doesn't it? So, I'd like to see your evidence too.

My evidence? I did not offer up any unsubstantiated fact.

[kauboy]

No, no. I was just piggybacking off of your post. I'm curious about what he has to offer up.

[Odin]

Here's the bottom line: Your first responsibility is to protect yourself and your family. I mean protect in every way. It won't do them good if you act heroically and then get killed, disabled, prosecuted, or sued into bankruptcy.

You can sell that somewhere else. There is NO good reason to sit back and watch an innocent person get killed. I love my wife, and would die for her, but I WILL NOT let an innocent person die knowing that I may have been able to prevent it. Call it stupid if you want, I call it selflessness.

I agree with you, I wouldn't just "sit back and watch an innocent person get killed" if I could do something to help, but your statement assumes facts not known at the time of the incident.

How do you know the "victim" is really a victim, or is "innocent"? The security guard at the mall incident is pretty easily defined, but what if it was just two guys in a parking lot? How do you know you're not stepping into a drug deal gone bad? A lover's spat? Who knows what is actually happening.

My opinion is that if I'm on my time then my weapon is there to protect me. I'll be a good witness, and I may even intervene if I think it's prudent, but I will do so with reservations.

A gun is a tool, it's not a magic wand. You might be surprised that there a good many people in this world who you can point a gun at and they won't flinch or obey your commands at all. There are plenty of people out there who aren't the least bit afraid of an armed cop, and they certainly aren't afraid of an armed citizen.

Are you prepared for the moment that your gun and your verbal commands have absolutely zero effect on the suspect, other than to divert the suspect's attention to you?

Are you prepared for when you shoot at the suspect but due to duress and motion one or more shots misses your target (and hits who knows what)?

Are you prepared for when you shoot the suspect and your bullets seemingly have no effect on the suspect?

Are you prepared for when the person who was being assaulted by the suspect just moments before now turns their attention to you and joins the suspect in assaulting you?

Are you prepared for the suspect's accomplicies, who you hadn't noticed before, to join in the assault against you?

Are you prepared for the suspect to drop his knife and attack you with his hands, causing you to no longer be justified in using your gun but now being forced to fight and protect your gun?

Are you wearing body armor?

Have you already called for backup and can you hear the sirens of your backup units approaching as fast as they can drive?

If you can't answer yes to all of those questions then you better think long and hard about jumping into a stranger-on-stranger assault situation.


I'm not saying don't intervene, I'm just saying know what's at stake before you go out armed and ready to intervene.

[kauboy]

If you really want my answers, here goes:

I agree with you, I wouldn't just "sit back and watch an innocent person get killed" if I could do something to help, but your statement assumes facts not known at the time of the incident.

How do you know the "victim" is really a victim, or is "innocent"? The security guard at the mall incident is pretty easily defined, but what if it was just two guys in a parking lot? How do you know you're not stepping into a drug deal gone bad? A lover's spat? Who knows what is actually happening.

If a deadly weapon is presented in their confrontation, their relationship doesn't matter to a hill of beans. One is intending "serious bodily injury" to the other. If its just a scuffle or an argument, I'll leave well enough alone and just stand there and watch... and ask for someone to pass the popcorn.

My opinion is that if I'm on my time then my weapon is there to protect me. I'll be a good witness, and I may even intervene if I think it's prudent, but I will do so with reservations.

A gun is a tool, it's not a magic wand. You might be surprised that there a good many people in this world who you can point a gun at and they won't flinch or obey your commands at all. There are plenty of people out there who aren't the least bit afraid of an armed cop, and they certainly aren't afraid of an armed citizen.

Statistically, most are.

Are you prepared for the moment that your gun and your verbal commands have absolutely zero effect on the suspect, other than to divert the suspect's attention to you?

Yes, my gun would not be drawn otherwise.

Are you prepared for when you shoot at the suspect but due to duress and motion one or more shots misses your target (and hits who knows what)?

Yes, all gun carriers, cops or otherwise, MUST be prepared for this.

Are you prepared for when you shoot the suspect and your bullets seemingly have no effect on the suspect?

Yes, thats what the extra mag is for. If you don't stop after I put even half of 29 .40 rounds into you, then your Superman and all is hopeless.

Are you prepared for when the person who was being assaulted by the suspect just moments before now turns their attention to you and joins the suspect in assaulting you?

Yes, situational awareness dictates that you always know your surroundings and common sense says you stay with cover regardless of the situation.

Are you prepared for the suspect's accomplices, who you hadn't noticed before, to join in the assault against you?

I would expect noting less from thugs. Head is always on a swivel and gun is centered on the threat.

Are you prepared for the suspect to drop his knife and attack you with his hands, causing you to no longer be justified in using your gun but now being forced to fight and protect your gun?

Oh, I'll still use my gun, as a club. And in reality, people can just as easily be killed by the hands of another as with a knife. Regardless, if he goes for my gun, he gets it, bullets first.

Are you wearing body armor?

Nope, terribly expensive, uncomfortable, and restrictive. But I'll betcha he isn't either. BTW, how many cops wear one everyday? Their lives are literally on the line day in and day out, yet they don't worry with it 24/7.

Have you already called for backup and can you hear the sirens of your backup units approaching as fast as they can drive?

If your referring to 911, they are listening to (and recording) the entire event from the comfort of my cell phone which is clipped to my belt.

If you can't answer yes to all of those questions then you better think long and hard about jumping into a stranger-on-stranger assault situation.

Shoot, if I have to be worried about all of this stuff, I don't think I should protect my wife either. Wouldn't want "his" buddies to jump me when I do.

I'm not saying don't intervene, I'm just saying know what's at stake before you go out armed and ready to intervene.

There is no way to EVER know all of what is at stake, but I do my very best to understand the threats that I may face. Thats why preparation is key. I learn all I can. I carry what I need. And I learn from other's experiences. What more can a man do? Oh thats right, ignore it all

[txinvestigator]

Here's the bottom line: Your first responsibility is to protect yourself and your family. I mean protect in every way. It won't do them good if you act heroically and then get killed, disabled, prosecuted, or sued into bankruptcy.

You can sell that somewhere else. There is NO good reason to sit back and watch an innocent person get killed. I love my wife, and would die for her, but I WILL NOT let an innocent person die knowing that I may have been able to prevent it. Call it stupid if you want, I call it selflessness.

I agree with you, I wouldn't just "sit back and watch an innocent person get killed" if I could do something to help, but your statement assumes facts not known at the time of the incident.

How do you know the "victim" is really a victim, or is "innocent"? The security guard at the mall incident is pretty easily defined, but what if it was just two guys in a parking lot? How do you know you're not stepping into a drug deal gone bad? A lover's spat? Who knows what is actually happening.

My opinion is that if I'm on my time then my weapon is there to protect me. I'll be a good witness, and I may even intervene if I think it's prudent, but I will do so with reservations.

A gun is a tool, it's not a magic wand. You might be surprised that there a good many people in this world who you can point a gun at and they won't flinch or obey your commands at all. There are plenty of people out there who aren't the least bit afraid of an armed cop, and they certainly aren't afraid of an armed citizen.

Are you prepared for the moment that your gun and your verbal commands have absolutely zero effect on the suspect, other than to divert the suspect's attention to you?

Are you prepared for when you shoot at the suspect but due to duress and motion one or more shots misses your target (and hits who knows what)?

Are you prepared for when you shoot the suspect and your bullets seemingly have no effect on the suspect?

Are you prepared for when the person who was being assaulted by the suspect just moments before now turns their attention to you and joins the suspect in assaulting you?

Are you prepared for the suspect's accomplicies, who you hadn't noticed before, to join in the assault against you?

Are you prepared for the suspect to drop his knife and attack you with his hands, causing you to no longer be justified in using your gun but now being forced to fight and protect your gun?

Are you wearing body armor?

Have you already called for backup and can you hear the sirens of your backup units approaching as fast as they can drive?

If you can't answer yes to all of those questions then you better think long and hard about jumping into a stranger-on-stranger assault situation.


I'm not saying don't intervene, I'm just saying know what's at stake before you go out armed and ready to intervene.

Odin, all of that applies to defending yourself too, and don't assume that just because you paid your own way thru a police academy that you are smarter or have more tactical or legal knowledge than the others here. If you ever get hired as a cop, I hope you don't have this attitude with your FTO. Of course we had this discussion on a police forum, but I guess you didn't learn from there.

And what does body armor and sirens have to do with anything?

You have already made the point that you don't care about others and would act selfishly in such a situation. That's fine, but you are now

[seamusTX]

The legal system does not protect people who intervene in stranger-violence situations. You can find yourself held responsible (sometimes unfairly) for aggravating the situation that you were trying to help with.

Really? I would love to read your case law, statute, etc.

In general, you can be sued for anything you do.

PC §9.06. CIVIL REMEDIES UNAFFECTED. The fact that conduct is justified under this chapter does not abolish or impair any remedy for the conduct that is available in a civil suit.

The worst case would be a shot that misses the bad guy and hits an innocent person. In that case, you could be prosecuted if the DA wanted to make an example of you (deadly conduct, probably).

You can be prosecuted for any use of force. The justifications in PC §9 are defenses, not exceptions to prosecution.

It could also be argued in a civil suit that your intervention escalated the situation. For example, you see an armed robbery taking place. You confront the robber, who then starts shooting wildly. The attorney of one of the people that he shot could argue that if you had not intervened, the robber would simply have taken the money and run.

Another possible scenario is that cops arrive belatedly and think you are the criminal. There have been plenty of situations where a nervous cop shot someone who didn't need shooting.

It's a can of worms the size of the Astrodome.

- Jim

[kauboy]

That still won't keep me from trying to help a defensless person.

You do raise a point though. Thats why our Congress needs to step it up in 07 and get that danged "Stand your ground" law passed. That would protect a shooter from civil court if the incident was ruled justified.

[Odin]

You have already made the point that you don't care about others and would act selfishly in such a situation. That's fine, but you are now

Maybe it is selfish, but when I go to the mall to do a little shopping I'm not going there with the intention of putting my life on the line for some stranger. There is a possibility that I might do just that, but it is by no means certain that I will intervene.

You call it selfish, I call it self preservation. My first responsibility is to myself and my family, not to some stranger at the mall. I will not lose sight of that fact.

[phddan]

Wow!!!!!

I guess in this day and age it isn't out of the norm to be selfish and uncaring.

Glad I was raised different.

There are times in life where you either man up, or you go home with your
tail between your legs, and rationalize your actions.

Dan

[KBCraig]

Odin and Dan...

I think of it like this: you've all heard the old saw, "Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

The fact that others have failed to prepare themselves for defense, does not obligate me to serve as their protector.

That said, I could not stand idly by while an innocent was attacked. But... because I am not omniscient, I would be very cautious deciding who was the attacker and who was innocent. The world is full of examples of plainclothes/undercover police officers being mistaken for bad guys while effecting an arrest.

During that prudent period, I would be protecting myself and my family. That's not being selfish. Acting recklessly in defense of another could endanger my family. Going to jail would definitely remove me from the role of protector.

Kevin

[stroo]

KBCraig makes a very good point. Just to add to it, if you intervene in a fight between a man and a woman, and they happen to be married, living together or boyfriend/girlfriend, you may end up having to defend yourself from both of them. Oftentimes women don't take very well to a stranger taking on their husband/loved one not matter what that person is doing to them at the time. If you are going to intervene, make very sure you really know what is happening and watch your back. In my view, in most situations, calling the police is the much better policy.

[phddan]

I don't remember anyone saying to blindly jump in to any situation. But it does come across by some that they would stand by or leave an older person being confronted by a knife wielding punk. You are measured by your actions, not your excuses.

Dan

[Liberty]

I don't remember anyone saying to blindly jump in to any situation. But it does come across by some that they would stand by or leave an older person being confronted by a knife wielding punk. You are measured by your actions, not your excuses.

Dan

I was going to stay out of this discussion, but one thing that the Death Wish" types have not concidered. in the original scenario. The Goblin has the security guard at knife point. I am assumming at the security guards throat. This is a hostage situation. If the Goblin is pushed into a panic, there could be a lot of blood spewing from the security guard. At this point if you were to display your previously concealed weapon, you are forcing the goblin to make choices.

a. Give up and surrender, while begging for mercy.
b. Release the victim unharmed and run away.
c. Slit the throat of the victim in panic. While you empty the clip couragously into the goblin.
d. Do nothing and challenge you to fire and kill him before he can complete the slashing motion.

Concidering that the goblin has already proven the ability to panic. I don't like the odds. What is needed is someone to talk this guy down. police do this type of thing all the time. I don't know how good I or most people would be in this situation. I think the victim in this case might have better odds if our concealed weapons stay concealed.

[TX Rancher]

I don't remember anyone saying to blindly jump in to any situation. But it does come across by some that they would stand by or leave an older person being confronted by a knife wielding punk. You are measured by your actions, not your excuses.

Dan

I was going to stay out of this discussion, but one thing that the Death Wish" types have not concidered. in the original scenario. The Goblin has the security guard at knife point. I am assumming at the security guards throat. This is a hostage situation. If the Goblin is pushed into a panic, there could be a lot of blood spewing from the security guard. At this point if you were to display your previously concealed weapon, you are forcing the goblin to make choices.

a. Give up and surrender, while begging for mercy.
b. Release the victim unharmed and run away.
c. Slit the throat of the victim in panic. While you empty the clip couragously into the goblin.
d. Do nothing and challenge you to fire and kill him before he can complete the slashing motion.

Concidering that the goblin has already proven the ability to panic. I don't like the odds. What is needed is someone to talk this guy down. police do this type of thing all the time. I don't know how good I or most people would be in this situation. I think the victim in this case might have better odds if our concealed weapons stay concealed.

Liberty:

I didn’t read the scenario exactly that way. In my mind I see the kid with the knife pulled and not closing with the guard yet.

“- Middle of the afternoon in a crowded mall. Punk teenager gets caught attempting to steal something by a mall security guard. Teenager pulls a knife on the security guard and threatens the security guards life.�

I envision the guard took steps backward when the kid produced the knife (I would…) and the kid made some sort of threatening remark that a normal person would have interpreted as life threatening. Now this is where I start the analysis. The kid and the guard are separated by maybe 10 ft (very close considering how fast the kid can close if he so chooses). What happens next is really up to the guard and the kid. If the guard stays put, and the kid appears to be using the threat of the knife to escape, then I do nothing but make sure I’m not inadvertently blocking his escape route while checking my surroundings for others (especially my 6:00). If time allows, move to a better position.

If the kid appears to be thinking about using the knife instead of retreating, I’ll deploy and hope he decides to leave…If he charges me, I scoot and shoot. If he charges the guard, I would probably respond the same (without the “scooting�). But statistically, he will do neither. When my firearm is deployed, I suspect he will try to escape if that option is available, and I’ll do my best to make sure it is and he’s aware of it. Of course there are cases where he won’t try to retreat, and there are cases where he won’t listen to my commands, but that’s not the majority…And if his mind set is he’s going to stab the guard, had no intention of leaving in the first place, then the guards best chance is my gun and my deploying it is a good thing.

If at my entry point above, the guard moves towards the kid instead of back, and doesn’t allow the possibility of escape, he’s on his own and I will not deploy at that time (although I will have my hand on the weapon). If the kid stabs the guard, and looks like he’s going to stab again, I’ll deploy and fire if I don’t think kicking/hitting him will halt the attack. If he stabs him once, and starts to disengage, then I stay out of it since the threat to the guard is temporarily over.

To me, if the guard is in imminent risk of being stabbed, through no fault of his own, then I will respond. I don’t expect others to do likewise, and a decision to stay out of it under those circumstances is acceptable to me if it’s acceptable to them, their call. In my case, it’s just the way I am, I’ll respond to the needs of others in this sort of situation.

I believe it’s important to realize my intent is not to capture the kid, and certainly not to shoot/kill him. It doesn’t matter to me what he stole from the store, that’s why they have insurance. Rather my intent is to prevent or mitigate risk to the guard and other bystanders. I’m perfectly content with the “BG� leaving the scene, with whatever he shoplifted, if that’s how nobody gets hurt. In my mind, shoplifting doesn’t justify getting shot, but attempted stabbing does. By the way, I don’t “know� what the kid did at this time. All I know is the guard confronted him, and he pulled a knife and threatened him. I suspect it was shoplifting given the surroundings, but I don’t know.

To your point Liberty, if the kid had a knife to the guard’s throat, that’s a whole different situation. I would not deploy, or even do anything that hints I’m armed. Instead I would try to talk the kid out the door. “Son, not a good idea. Pretty soon the cops will be here, and once that happens you’re not getting away. Better to run now while you have a chance. I won’t stop you, and neither will anyone else.� If he runs, great. If he cuts the guards throat and runs, I don’t shoot. Instead, I run to the guard and start first aid. Many people survive throat slashes with help, and remember my goal is no one dies if possible.

So with your interpretation of the situation, it seems like I’m in agreement with you. Keep it hidden, try to deescalate the situation, and wait for the cops if de-escalation doesn’t work.

By the way, I don't have a death wish, living is much better , but I bet the guard doesn't have a death wish either.