AR .223 vs. 5.56 question

[LittleGun]

I tried the 5.56 ammo and I like it. I sighted-in my rifle for 100 yards, then worked up to 300 yards. I started out with Federal .223. After I got comfortable with the distance, I switched to Winchester 5.56 NATO. The 5.56 had a stronger kick and louder report, but it hit the target properly at 300 yards. The next time I go shooting, I'll shoot more 5.56.

[blackdog8200]

For what it is worth, I have a MP15 (1in 9) and a Colt CAR 15 and the kid has the RRA AR Elite Comp. They are all 5.56.

I have shot all kinds of ammo through the Colt and MP without issue. The RRA is too new to tell but I expect the same.

Cabelas has Herters Steel Cased .223 in 62 grain for under $4.00 a box....on sale sometimes for $3.50. It shoots very well in my guns. The MP 15 really likes the stuff. Shoots around 1 inch at 100yds.

Black hills seems to be the best stuf as well as Hornady...These can be pricey as in $18 for 20 to $30 for 50 but shoot MOA or better in my MP. Hornady makes some steel cased "practice" rounds but they cost as much as the Black Hills in brass so I haven't tried them yet.

Federal Tactical, PMC Bronze all seem to be good shooting brass cased ammo at the $6.00 mark.

I have a batch of the OLD Wolf .223 about 8 years old....it shoots about 2 moa but goes bang every time and I have never had an issue with it. I don't have experience with the new Wolf and I think they are MFG by another company now. Tula I have read is underpowered and sometimes fails to cycle the bolt....YMMV

Some folks have issues with the steel case....they think the polymer coating fouls the chamber. It is not the polymer but the stiffer case that allows more gas / crud back into the chamber. I clean and Lube with CLP and run my bolt carriers "wet" and don't have any problems. For shooting a tactical class or balloons down the beach of the Brazos river, cheap is good. For the house and critical applications like defense and hunting, Hornady TAP at nearly a $1.00 a pop is fine.

I had a buddy buy a new MP15 and took it out to shoot. It still had the factory grease in it..... When I rolled up he was disapointed that it didn't want to feed well, the bolt wouldn't seat etc. I popped it open, field stripped it and coated it with CLP, swabbed the bore and chamber and it fired anything we put in it all afternoon. Fiochii FMJ was very good in his rifle.


The short version is my guns have fired all kind of ammo from mil surplus and tracer to match grade and have had no issues. I would expect to break an extractor after a few thousand rounds (a $2.00 part) or one day a Bolt lug. From the comment on Herters ammo I have read, the Bushmasters don't like it. Maybe the lack of Chrome chambers??? has something to do with that.

Bad magazines left over from the 80's mil surplus can be an issue. The new polymer mags from Magpul work flawlessly as do my old Colt 20 rounders from back in the day. Good followers and feed lips are the key.

A good, mil spec AR with CLP or EWL will run hard. Remember that the SUSTAINED rate of fire for an AR is only 15 rounds per minute.
From the manual:


DON'T OVERHEAT YOUR AR-15 BARREL. Sustained firing of the AR-15 will rapidly raise the temperature of the barrel to a critical point. Firing 140 rounds, rapidly and continuously, will raise the temperature of the barrel to the COOKOFF POINT. At this temperature, any live round remaining in the chamber for any reason may detonate (cookoff) in as short a period as 10 seconds. If the cookoff point is felt to be possible, clear your weapon and allow it to cool. Sustained rate of fire for the AR-15 is 12-15 rounds per minute. This is the actual rate of fire that this weapon can continue to deliver for an indefinite length of time without seriously overheating. Sustained rate of fire should never be exceeded except under circumstances of extreme urgency.

Here is an article on a rifle with 40K shot through it and only being cleaned once or twice....

http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vspfil ... _oct10.pdf

Have fun and keep shooting!

God bless the SEAL's and all our troops....

[Scott in Houston]

GREAT POST! Thanks for all that.

I ended up with a Daniel Defense M4v1. I've shot mostly Monarch .223 and Federal .223 from Academy and Walmart.

Here's an example of one of my 50 yard targets after zeroing. :)



I love this rifle. I'm happy with this ammo for target and plinking. If there was ever a reason to use it for self defense, I don't see the need to spend the extra money on SD ammo. These rounds don't mushroom much differently, and essentially, an FMJ target load will do only very marginally less damage than an "SD" round.

(Hey... look at me I just got my rifle and I'm already an expert on SD rounds!)

[Rifleman55]

One of the reasons that commercial.223 is more expensive is the type of bullet, soft point and some hollow point bullets are more expensive to make than most military bullets. The only differences that I know about 5.56 chambers is that the throat is longer to allow the military rounds to be loaded to higher pressures to obtain the velocity that mil. spec. calls for.
The dimensions of the brass are the same and therefore the head space is the same, I would not shoot 5.56 ammo in a .223 chamber, I don't thinkthat a modern rifle would blow up but it would be hard on the rifle.

[mgood]

Any AR chambered in 5.56 will safely shoot both 5.56 and .223. But, because of slight differences in the headspacing and case wall thickness, it may not be safe to chamber 5.56 in your .223 weapon because of higher pressures.

One semi-exception is the Ruger Mini-14 in ."223". It IS actually a 5.56mm chamber but the receiver is stamped .223 due to Bill Ruger's odd sense of what he considered more politically correct. Go figure.

[zero4o3]

It is also better to have a 5.56 mm chamber because when the world ends, you may find yourself scrounging or trading for ammo and only be able to find 5.56. My "emergency" stockpiled ammo is all m193, which I think is pretty common. That reminds me, I need to buy some more of that...

when the world ends? I am interested in knowing when that happens. I guess i am short on ammo..this however is the least of my problems when ice age winter is the here

December 2012?

[NcongruNt]

I think that unless you're going for a high-precision match gun, a 5.56 chamber gives you better options. My AR has a 16" mid-length heavy Rock River barrel in 5.56, and it is more accurate than I could hope to be.

I personally sight my rifle in at 50/200m (they're essentially the same in the AR platform at 5.56 velocities) using 5.56 ammo. I reload, so my plinking load is a moderate .223-spec load using VV135 worked up for accuracy, running at around 2740fps. This is my most accurate load, and I got a 7/16" group at 50m with the 5 rounds used during my reload workup. POI is a little lower than with the Q3131A1 round, around 1 MOA at 50m. The advantage in this situation of zeroing with the 5.56 ammo at 50/200m is that when switching over to the lower-velocity .223 plinking rounds, POI is fairly close to target center (2 or 3 inches or so high versus the 4-5 with the 5.56) at 100m. A 50/200m zero will put rounds about 4.5 MOA high on the target at 100m using 5.56 velocities, but if you're using lower velocity ammo, POI drops along the line, wth the trajectory drop being more severe the further you go out.

In my experience, factory .223 from most manufacturers tends to run on the hot side, so you're practically only going to see around 250fps or so difference between 5.56 ammo (Winchester Q3131A1 clocks around 3200fps in my gun, vs around 2950 -if i recall correctly - for something like the Monarch 55gr). This means there will be less difference in POI between 5.56 and .223 ammo then with my plinking reloads, but still some, nonetheless.

This can be adjusted for on my red dot by adjusting a few clicks to move POI in line with the 5.56 ammo. How and what ammo you zero with really depends on what you're going to be shooting. You can always re-zero later, if you change your mind.

Also, since we're talking brands and models of ammo here, I've found that the Winchester Q3131A1 5.56 NATO ammo to be very good in consistency and accuracy. It is the most accurate commercial ammo I've put through my rifle. From what I understand, this is the standard IDF 5.56 NATO load. As mentioned, Academy doesn't carry it or any other 5.56 NATO ammo, but you can find it readily at Cabela's and other similar stores. Cabela's puts it on sale pretty frequently at $8.99/box. I've got a few hundred rounds of it built up in my stock. If you ever get out near Brenham, Ammunition To Go carries this stuff at a decent price. It comes out to $9.08/box when bought in quantities of 500 rounds, or $9.19 in quantities of 100 rounds:

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_i ... 6-fmj-ammo
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_i ... 6-fmj-ammo

For .223 ammo, I've found that PMC Bronze performs quite well. It's not quite as good as the Q3131A1, but it is also considerably cheaper. I believe Cabela's has it on sale for $6.49/box right now. I went and bought 600 rounds of it the other day:

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting ... 731863.uts

I made a comparison of several different commercial loads off my lead sled, if you're interested in looking at those. Keep in mind, this will vary with different barrels, but it's a good starting point if you want to take a look:

http://therealnecessities.blogspot.com/ ... tests.html

Pro Tip: Cabela's will honor their internet price if the store rings it up at something higher. I went to get the PMC ammo from them, and it rang up at $7.99/box. I pointed out that I'd scanned it at one of their little kiosks in the store and it came up there at $6.49. The cashier then overrode the price to match the price listed at the kiosk, and saved me $45 ($48.71 if you count tax savings as well) in the process. Alternatively, you can also buy it online and have it shipped for In-Store Pickup (no shipping cost). When it arrives at the store, go and pick it up there at the service desk without having to hassle with checkout.

[packa45]

Any AR chambered in 5.56 will safely shoot both 5.56 and .223. But, because of slight differences in the headspacing and case wall thickness, it may not be safe to chamber 5.56 in your .223 weapon because of higher pressures.

One semi-exception is the Ruger Mini-14 in ."223". It IS actually a 5.56mm chamber but the receiver is stamped .223 due to Bill Ruger's odd sense of what he considered more politically correct. Go figure.

Small comment on the mini 14. Yes the ranch versions and i believe the tactical mini are stamped 223 rem and are chambered for 5.56 mil spec. However the target is stamped 223 rem and is not 5.56 compatible.. I would not advise using 5.56 in the target mini...friend of mine didn't completely read the manual and used 5.56 in his target mini and now has hairline stress fractures forming on the bolt face and the chamber more or less rendering the rifle unsafe to use.

[mgood]

Any AR chambered in 5.56 will safely shoot both 5.56 and .223. But, because of slight differences in the headspacing and case wall thickness, it may not be safe to chamber 5.56 in your .223 weapon because of higher pressures.

One semi-exception is the Ruger Mini-14 in ."223". It IS actually a 5.56mm chamber but the receiver is stamped .223 due to Bill Ruger's odd sense of what he considered more politically correct. Go figure.

Small comment on the mini 14. Yes the ranch versions and i believe the tactical mini are stamped 223 rem and are chambered for 5.56 mil spec. However the target is stamped 223 rem and is not 5.56 compatible.. I would not advise using 5.56 in the target mini...friend of mine didn't completely read the manual and used 5.56 in his target mini and now has hairline stress fractures forming on the bolt face and the chamber more or less rendering the rifle unsafe to use.

Hmm, did not know that the chambers were different on the Target models. I figued they just slapped on a heavier barrel, and in some cases a different stock, and called it the Target.
Learn somethin' knew every day.

[glbedd53]

My Mini 14 is an old 180 series that I bought in 1976. I shot 5.56 in it for years before I ever even knew to ask that question. Not too long ago I called Ruger and they said 5.56 is OK.

[mgood]

My Mini 14 is an old 180 series that I bought in 1976. I shot 5.56 in it for years before I ever even knew to ask that question. Not too long ago I called Ruger and they said 5.56 is OK.

As a rule of thumb, most semi-autos will be fine with either, with the exception of some precision target rifles (which I guess includes the Mini-14 Target).
Bolt action .223s are where you really don't wan't to try 5.56mm.
I have no use for a bolt-action .223, so that doesn't really affect me. (I prefer a .22-250 for prairie dogs ) But if someone wanted a bolt gun to feed the same ammo they already had in an AR or something, then I could see justification for a .223 in a bolt-action.

[TXlaw1]

DON'T OVERHEAT YOUR AR-15 BARREL. Sustained firing of the AR-15 will rapidly raise the temperature of the barrel to a critical point. Firing 140 rounds, rapidly and continuously, will raise the temperature of the barrel to the COOKOFF POINT. At this temperature, any live round remaining in the chamber for any reason may detonate (cookoff) in as short a period as 10 seconds. If the cookoff point is felt to be possible, clear your weapon and allow it to cool. Sustained rate of fire for the AR-15 is 12-15 rounds per minute. This is the actual rate of fire that this weapon can continue to deliver for an indefinite length of time without seriously overheating. Sustained rate of fire should never be exceeded except under circumstances of extreme urgency.

Here is an article on a rifle with 40K shot through it and only being cleaned once or twice....

http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vspfil ... _oct10.pdf

Have fun and keep shooting!

God bless the SEAL's and all our troops....

Thank you for this important tip and the link to the great article about the Filthy 14. I found the mention of the lubricant SLiP EWL - Extreme Weapons Lubricant - very interesting. After reading a lot about it at the website, I bought a value pack kit at http://www.slip2000.com/slip2000-EWL.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and can't wait to get my AR-15 properly lubed. So thanks again.

[PappaGun]

It is also better to have a 5.56 mm chamber because when the world ends, you may find yourself scrounging or trading for ammo and only be able to find 5.56. My "emergency" stockpiled ammo is all m193, which I think is pretty common. That reminds me, I need to buy some more of that...

when the world ends? I am interested in knowing when that happens. I guess i am short on ammo..this however is the least of my problems when ice age winter is the here

December 2012?

May 21 according to this group...

http://www.familyradio.com/index2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[blackdog8200]

My RRA 20" SS Bull Barrel with the "Wylde" Chamber in .223 will shoot both 5.56 and .223.... But it loves the .223 77 Grain SMK Premier from Remington $30 for 20.... :



YMMV

[Andrew]

Also, since we're talking brands and models of ammo here, I've found that the Winchester Q3131A1 5.56 NATO ammo to be very good in consistency and accuracy. It is the most accurate commercial ammo I've put through my rifle. From what I understand, this is the standard IDF 5.56 NATO load

Q3131 is Winchester NATO spec M193 ammo.
Q3131A1 is conract loaded to NATO M193 spec for Winchester by PMC.
Q3131A is contract loaded to NATO M193 spec for Winchester by IMI. IDF uses loads very similar to Q3131A. IMI does export M193/Q3131A ammo. Generally considered one of, if not the best of, the surplus M193s available. Hot load, usually very clean, up to spec ballistics. Widener's Reloading in Johnson City TN occasionally has large quantities for sale in the $300 per 1200 round price range.