You tell the guy to go, he says, "no" and continues to advance (trespass), you don't have time for niceties. Remember the Tueller drill where the average person can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. If he decides to close on me, I don't want it to be my iPhone in my hand. I can call 911 immediately after I pull the trigger, or convince him to go prone with his hands on his head. The former if he thinks I look easy to take, the latter if he is smart enough to see the look in my eyes.
(OK, let's be honest. I think that is how I would handle it. I have not had it happen to me, so it is all mental scenario.)
RJ
CHL Received 5/16/11
Proud Member NRA
Proud Member Texas Concealed Handgun Association
Proud Member Second Amendment Foundation
Proud Member of The Truth Squad founded by Tom Gresham. "A lie left unchallenged becomes the truth"
...I will call the police either before I have a problem that makes me feel uneasy...a suspicious person across the street or circling the neighborhood...and have...and have had to get rude to get the 911 operatior to quit asking questions and send the officer...only to find that she relayed NONE of the details I patiently gave her...he got there more than a few times with NO INFORMATION...
...once I feel the least bit like there's a problem that could get bad, I am NOT on the phone...I am watching and planning...I will call the police to report what happened...I might be found dead, but it won't be with a phone in my hand and some 911 operator asking am I still there...once it is time...there is no time to be on the phone...a wife or child might try that...last time there was a gun call in the neighborhood, I argued with the 911 dispatcher till the guy ripped off 8 rounds(he was in his house across the street)...then I told them in an uncivil manner to get there and my hands were full of shotgun...
I am IN NO WAY criticizing the original poster. I think you did great and if I were on a Grand Jury I would vote to no-bill a person defending themselves on their own property. However, I wonder if the other members of a Grand Jury would also see it this way. Would the law actually help me if I shot this unarmed person, or is it dependent on the mood of the Grand Jury that particular day?
You know the saying, "Cops are only minutes away when you only have seconds....." or something similar. Point is, in situations like this I think using the cell phone first is the better choice. HO wasn't in immediate danger. If you ask the guy to leave and he refuses, dial 911 on the spot. If the person then shows aggression because you drop a dime on him, then by all means exercise other options.
I wasn't?? Lets see. First time I told him to get off my property, he was about 15 yards away, he said "No" and made a "bee-line" straight up the path towards me. I said again "Get off my property" when he was about 7 yards away and again told me "No." When I was ready to pull, he was about 3 yards. At exactly what point shpuld I decide when I was in danger? The police told me I could have shot him and been in my right. I was NOT going to waste time on fast approachment on the phone. In fact, I believe I used restraint (perhaps too much so) by not having already pulled a gun on him.
NRA Life Member
NRA Instructor for Refuse To Be A Victim
Instructor of Basic, Advanced and Defensive Handgun, CHL http://www.castlekeepservices.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
wgoforth wrote:In fact, I believe I used restraint (perhaps too much so) by not having already pulled a gun on him.
Obviously you did the right thing as all came out ok. But I have to be honest, I believe that had I been in your position my gun would have been drawn first time he told me no.
wgoforth wrote:I guess I do not understand,... man whom you know was looking through your vehicle....advances towards you on your own property. You tell him twice to stop. He tells you no and continues advancing. Why would I NOT be able to say I felt threatened and deemed it neccesary to stop him? BTW, his outstanding warrant was for illegal posession of a firearm.
...regardless of what his warrant was for...you understand perfectly, and did quite well what a reasonable man would do...and were justified...and are to be commended for your restraint in not drawing and pointing it at him...though that would have been justified in your scenario as you posted it...
Wow. Not sure how I missed this thread until today.
Seems to me that you very reasonable and I have no disagreement with the way you handled it.
Situations like this are why I am slowly installing video and audio recording around the exterior of my home.
If this event had been recorded, it might have gone viral.
I once had a door to door sales job and we were instructed never to take no as the answer until the fifth time.
Everyone says no the first couple of times to a D to D guy.
However, this guy clearly handled it the wrong way and it sounds like he was up to no good and your read of the situation was spot on.
Cheers
...good point...I never took "no" for an answer the first time, either...but the first negative answer I got, I'd back up a coupla steps and ask if I'd caught them at a bad time...would they prefer me call for an appointment...which they often gave...I didn't keep advancing on an elderly(sorry wgoforth ) man or woman telling them "No" on their own property...that makes for skinny salesmen....
I understand salesmen don't take no for an answer, but would your response have been a "no" when told to leave the property? He committed criminal trespass at that point. BTW, to establish myself as the victim, I told them I wanted criminal traspass charges filed on him.
NRA Life Member
NRA Instructor for Refuse To Be A Victim
Instructor of Basic, Advanced and Defensive Handgun, CHL http://www.castlekeepservices.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
wgoforth wrote:I wasn't?? Lets see. First time I told him to get off my property, he was about 15 yards away, he said "No" and made a "bee-line" straight up the path towards me. I said again "Get off my property" when he was about 7 yards away and again told me "No." When I was ready to pull, he was about 3 yards. At exactly what point shpuld I decide when I was in danger? The police told me I could have shot him and been in my right. I was NOT going to waste time on fast approachment on the phone. In fact, I believe I used restraint (perhaps too much so) by not having already pulled a gun on him.
You are more generous than I. I have great respect for the Tueller drill and am aware that a knife may only be exposed in the last second before striking.
With that in mind, I'd be warning aggressively at 15 yards, drawn and on target at 7, and shooting by the time he got to 3 yards. If he keeps advancing when being ordered to stop, and keeps advancing in the face of me drawing a handgun, then I can only assume he has evil intentions and I am in fear for my life or serious bodily injury.
Jumping Frog wrote:I'd be warning aggressively at 15 yards, drawn and on target at 7, and shooting by the time he got to 3 yards.
You and me both!
Jumping Frog wrote:If he keeps advancing when being ordered to stop, and keeps advancing in the face of me drawing a handgun, then I can only assume he has evil intentions and I am in fear for my life or serious bodily injury.
wgoforth wrote:I understand salesmen don't take no for an answer, but would your response have been a "no" when told to leave the property? He committed criminal trespass at that point. BTW, to establish myself as the victim, I told them I wanted criminal traspass charges filed on him.
No.
That's why I said he handled it the wrong way and your response was reasonable.
When you told him to leave the first two words out of his mouth should have been "Yes sir".
The next word out of his mouth, if he was a legit salesman just doing his job would have been "but".
A good D to D salesman always has a come back.
He was NOT a good salesman if he was a salesman at all.
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe."
- Noah Webster
"All we ask for is registration, just like we do for cars."
- Charles Schumer
PappaGun wrote:When you told him to leave the first two words out of his mouth should have been "Yes sir".
The next word out of his mouth, if he was a legit salesman just doing his job would have been "but".
A good D to D salesman always has a come back.
There should be no "but". Even if you are a good salesman when you are told to leave or get off the property it should be "yes sir/ma'am" followed by you leaving. The only thing you should maybe say to them after that is "have a good day/night". To do anything else is rude.
wgoforth wrote:I wasn't?? Lets see. First time I told him to get off my property, he was about 15 yards away, he said "No" and made a "bee-line" straight up the path towards me. I said again "Get off my property" when he was about 7 yards away and again told me "No." When I was ready to pull, he was about 3 yards. At exactly what point shpuld I decide when I was in danger? The police told me I could have shot him and been in my right. I was NOT going to waste time on fast approachment on the phone. In fact, I believe I used restraint (perhaps too much so) by not having already pulled a gun on him.
You are more generous than I. I have great respect for the Tueller drill and am aware that a knife may only be exposed in the last second before striking.
With that in mind, I'd be warning aggressively at 15 yards, drawn and on target at 7, and shooting by the time he got to 3 yards. If he keeps advancing when being ordered to stop, and keeps advancing in the face of me drawing a handgun, then I can only assume he has evil intentions and I am in fear for my life or serious bodily injury.
Yes, I have dissected it many times in my mind. I never dreamed he wouldn't have left on his own when i called him out on looking into my van. Thats just it, I didn't know what his response would have been, so I should have had gun already pulled and behind my leg. When he began towards my and I shouted "Get off my property NOW" I was taken aback that he again said "no sir" and continued. At that point I began reaching for my gun, and had hands on it in my pocket at about 3 yards when I warned him he was about to face a gun if he took another step. He stopped, looked at my pocket, said "Yessir" and left. To do over again, yes, I would have had gun already drawn. The whole situation was baffling. But so will be most self defense situations.
NRA Life Member
NRA Instructor for Refuse To Be A Victim
Instructor of Basic, Advanced and Defensive Handgun, CHL http://www.castlekeepservices.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
wgoforth wrote:Yes, I have dissected it many times in my mind. . . .
Isn't it a blessing that we can review actions after an incident and learn from them. BTW, that is one reason I carry holstered on the belt instead of in a pocket. Jeez sometimes it is hard enough just to find my car keys in my pants pocket. I'd hate to be fumbling for me guns.
wgoforth wrote:I guess I do not understand,... man whom you know was looking through your vehicle....advances towards you on your own property. You tell him twice to stop. He tells you no and continues advancing. Why would I NOT be able to say I felt threatened and deemed it neccesary to stop him? BTW, his outstanding warrant was for illegal posession of a firearm.
...regardless of what his warrant was for...you understand perfectly, and did quite well what a reasonable man would do...and were justified...and are to be commended for your restraint in not drawing and pointing it at him...though that would have been justified in your scenario as you posted it...
Wow. Not sure how I missed this thread until today.
Seems to me that you very reasonable and I have no disagreement with the way you handled it.
Situations like this are why I am slowly installing video and audio recording around the exterior of my home.
If this event had been recorded, it might have gone viral.
I once had a door to door sales job and we were instructed never to take no as the answer until the fifth time.
Everyone says no the first couple of times to a D to D guy.
However, this guy clearly handled it the wrong way and it sounds like he was up to no good and your read of the situation was spot on.
Cheers
...good point...I never took "no" for an answer the first time, either...but the first negative answer I got, I'd back up a coupla steps and ask if I'd caught them at a bad time...would they prefer me call for an appointment...which they often gave...I didn't keep advancing on an elderly(sorry wgoforth ) man or woman telling them "No" on their own property...that makes for skinny salesmen....
I understand salesmen don't take no for an answer, but would your response have been a "no" when told to leave the property? He committed criminal trespass at that point. BTW, to establish myself as the victim, I told them I wanted criminal traspass charges filed on him.
...not hardly, Mama din't raise no fool...nothing in his demeanor suggested he might be a legitimate salesman...when a man or woman says the word "property"...you know they aren't just woofin'...unless you're a complete idiot...
Yes, I have dissected it many times in my mind. I never dreamed he wouldn't have left on his own when i called him out on looking into my van. Thats just it, I didn't know what his response would have been, so I should have had gun already pulled and behind my leg. When he began towards my and I shouted "Get off my property NOW" I was taken aback that he again said "no sir" and continued. At that point I began reaching for my gun, and had hands on it in my pocket at about 3 yards when I warned him he was about to face a gun if he took another step. He stopped, looked at my pocket, said "Yessir" and left. To do over again, yes, I would have had gun already drawn. The whole situation was baffling. But so will be most self defense situations.
So I stand corrected in my assessment of the situation. Having re-read in more detail and thought about it more I believe I would now do the same. Good Job. Good lessons, thanks for sharing.
One of my major peeves is being approached by a salesman when out in the yard working. They see you as a captive target.
Had a funeral salesman come up and he presisted no mater how much disinterest I expresssed. Finaly told him to stay right there while I go get the dogs to sic on him (don't actually have any dogs). He turned tail and left.
Recently has a suspicious salesman approach. I circled around and kept my vehicle between us.
Should I carry while working in the yard? Maybe but I hate feeling paranoid. In the 2nd example I had gone out to empty some trash.
kjolly wrote:Should I carry while working in the yard? Maybe but I hate feeling paranoid.
Why is carrying while at home (inside or outside) considered "being paranoid"?
Why not call it "being paranoid" when you carry away from your home?
It is the same thing. You carry a gun because you do not know when/if you will find yourself in a situation where you will need to use it in self-defense. You may just find yourself in that situation while at home.
) man or woman telling them "No" on their own property...that makes for skinny salesmen....
