CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

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mamabearCali
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Re: CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

Post by mamabearCali »

Keith B wrote:
mamabearCali wrote:An accident while preparing food is not even close--but an running off the road while driving a car is very similar. Both can be lethal, both require several saftey rules to have been broken by someone for it to occur. We don't take people's license away for that the first, second, or sometimes even the third time this happens. I see them as very similar. Incidentally I keep my knives as sharp as possible because the times I have cut myself the worst have usually been when I am exerting more force than should be needed to accomplish a task.
I don't associate the running off the road to the same as this. Running off the road while driving would IMO be comparable to being on the range shooting and errantly sweeping someone with the muzzle or accidentally shooting someone else's target.

In this case, it was like someone wanting to see your new car parked in the garage. You open the garage door, and a crowd of people gather around it to see the car. Then, you get in and start it up, put it in gear, shove the gas pedal to the floor and go screaming out of the garage through the crowd of people and luckily you just didn't hit anyone on your way down the driveway. That person needs to be ticketed for careless and imprudent driving and potentially have their drivers license suspended or yanked.

Well I would say one is quite a bit on purpose (and James Bondish) and one is unintentional but indeed negligent. More like having your friends around you in your new standard car and thinking you have the parking break engaged you put the car into neutral your friends jump out of the way as it crashes into the wall across the street. No one was hurt--they could have been--but still you are mostly just stupid.
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Jusster
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Re: CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

Post by Jusster »

mamabearCali wrote: Do we take a person's drivers license away based on one moment of negligence in which no one got hurt--no we don't, and a car is just as deadly of a weapon as any handgun.
Actually we do if a person is even charged with a DWI (or maybe it was not taking the Breathalyzer). You lose your license for a year.

Honestly I do agree with you about a person’s right to protect themselves except for those who deserve to lose that right by committing felonies, but in this case the mistakes made "leading up to" the ND just amaze me. Maybe they just have a very lax working environment and he feels very comfortable with EVERYONE in the office. I have good friends I work with that I have shown my gun to at the range or in our homes, but I would never unconcealed my weapon in a public place around people I do not really know or trust for many reasons.

1. You have no idea if one of them is about to make that phone call MWAG (Lucky for him this didn't happen)
2. I seriously would not want to lose my job.
3. I was very happy to get my license in the first place and I don't want to LOOSE it!

Also, this ND happened in an office. Most offices these days have very thin walls. Even if he did point the gun in a safe direction trying to clear it, which as Keith B stated I highly doubt, he could have killed someone VERY easily.

To me this is very reckless to say the least. If we’re going to take someone’s DL or CHL away for DWI why not this? I'm not sure the 5 to 7 years is fair (compaired to at least 1 year for DWI) but the law is the law. I wouldn't want to work with this guy, let alone have him in the lane next to me at the range
mamabearCali
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Re: CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

Post by mamabearCali »

Well,was he drunk? If he was-- then a DWI comparison is applicable. I don't think he was drunk, just stupid, could he have lost his job--I bet he could have. Should he-up to the company whether or not he lost his job-- not the law enforcement. I have worked in some places where it was more like a family and it would be conceivable that someone in that setting would show their weapon to their friend and not think it was a big deal.

We don't take a person's license away for simply doing something stupid like changing the radio station, eating while driving, driving too fast on the road way in the rain which then leads to them running off the road. Most of the time the law does not even know about such a thing happening and the person just learns "don't do that no more." If they do get caught they might get charged with wreckless driving if the cop was really having a bad day even then the chances of them losing their license are still pretty small.
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"The women of this country learned long ago those without swords can still die upon them!" Eowyn in LOTR Two Towers
Jusster
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Re: CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

Post by Jusster »

mamabearCali wrote:Well,was he drunk? If he was-- then a DWI comparison is applicable. I don't think he was drunk, just stupid, could he have lost his job--I bet he could have. Should he-up to the company whether or not he lost his job-- not the law enforcement. I have worked in some places where it was more like a family and it would be conceivable that someone in that setting would show their weapon to their friend and not think it was a big deal.

We don't take a person's license away for simply doing something stupid like changing the radio station, eating while driving, driving too fast on the road way in the rain which then leads to them running off the road. Most of the time the law does not even know about such a thing happening and the person just learns "don't do that no more." If they do get caught they might get charged with wreckless driving if the cop was really having a bad day even then the chances of them losing their license are still pretty small.

The point I was trying to make had nothing to do with whether or not he was drunk, but just stating the fact that you can lose your DL for a Misdemeanor charge.

On the same note though, I think you can draw the correlation between the two. Someone who is drinking and driving can kill someone with their car the same way this guy could have killed someone in his office with his gun. They make a conscious (well semi-conscious LOL) decision to get behind the wheel drunk, the same way he made a conscious decision to pull his gun out rack the slide and fire it. I’m sure most drunks don’t mean to kill anybody either but they do. Your right, many people don't get caught when the break the law. People drive drunk everyday and don't get caught, and this guy was VERY lucky that no one in his office called the law on him. The fact still remains that he broke the law as it is written. Maybe he knew everyone he was showing it to, but would you take that chance? I know I wouldn't.

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mamabearCali
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Re: CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

Post by mamabearCali »

No of course, I would not take that chance. I don't take out my weapon in public even though I live in a state where open carry is legal. I carry concealed for tactical reasons (and that is scares all the other soccer moms). Also we had a situation recently when two kids being scared of a person carrying a weapon got that person 2 years in jail--the circumstances are more complicated than that, but that its the gist of it.

However, even if your comparison is spot on--which I feel it is at least a stretch to put a momentary stupid attack in the same catagory as drunk driving IMO--you are still comparing apples and oranges in that ownership of a firearm is a constitutional right, driving a car is not in the same category. Your rights to own and operate a firearm go far beyond your rights to own and operate a vehicle. Even then I have known of people charged with a DWI that had 3 months restricted license (only to work and back) a few grand in court costs and then went on their merry way--no loss of car, and a very temporary loss of driving privileges.
SAHM to four precious children. Wife to a loving husband.

"The women of this country learned long ago those without swords can still die upon them!" Eowyn in LOTR Two Towers
DONT TREAD ON ME

Re: CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

Post by DONT TREAD ON ME »

mamabearCali wrote:An accident while preparing food is not even close--but an running off the road while driving a car is very similar. Both can be lethal, both require several saftey rules to have been broken by someone for it to occur. We don't take people's license away for that the first, second, or sometimes even the third time this happens. I see them as very similar. Incidentally I keep my knives as sharp as possible because the times I have cut myself the worst have usually been when I am exerting more force than should be needed to accomplish a task.
They are not even close in comparison.
DONT TREAD ON ME wrote:You guys that are comparing this with traffic violations are comparing apples and oranges. As I pointed out earlier it is required that one is not charged with the commission of a Class A or B misdemeanor to be eligible for a CHL. Nowhere does it state anything like that for a TDL. That is the point here. The law is very specific about this and he broke the law.
DONT TREAD ON ME

Re: CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

Post by DONT TREAD ON ME »

It seems that everyone here is focusing on the fact that there was a ND and this seems to be the source of all the tension.

So, lets take that out of the story.

New story goes like this...
Worker 1 has a CHL and carries at work under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, his CHL.

Worker 2 goes to worker 1 and says "I am thinking of buying the same model gun you have. Can I take a look at yours?" Worker 1 says "No problem".

He then proceeds to pull it out, properly clear it, and show everyone.
He should still have his license taken away for violation of TPC 46.035 as it is VERY clear.
TPC 46.035 wrote:UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun...

...(g) An offense under Subsection (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e) is a Class A misdemeanor
So, if he is now charged for what he did intentionally (and there is NO WAY that anyone here can claim that this was unintentional) he should still lose his CHL as he would be charged with a Class A misdemeanor.
CHL Eligibility wrote:...(4) is not charged with the commission of a Class A or Class B misdemeanor or an offense under Section 42.01, Penal Code, or of a felony under an information or indictment;...
So, for everyone that is focusing on the fact that he shouldn't have his CHL revoked because "it was an accident, we all have accidents" you are forgetting this very important part of the incident.
mamabearCali
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Re: CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

Post by mamabearCali »

DONT TREAD ON ME wrote:You guys that are comparing this with traffic violations are comparing apples and oranges. As I pointed out earlier it is required that one is not charged with the commission of a Class A or B misdemeanor to be eligible for a CHL. Nowhere does it state anything like that for a TDL. That is the point here. The law is very specific about this and he broke the law.
[/quote]

You know, with as many laws as we have on the books I am pretty sure we have all broken the law at some point in our lives--it is just a question of if we were caught or if the DA in the local county wants to take the time to prosecute. Look it up sometime the insane laws that we have on the books, you can end up in hot water for simply having a pen of rabbits in your back yard. So we can say "the laws the law" and throw the book at anyone who by malicious intent or moments of stupidity crosses a line that did not injure anyone, or we can have some sense and say "That was really stupid--don't you EVER do anything so stupid again--someone could be hurt" and let the police handle people who are actually causing havoc in our society.

I agre,e it is apples and oranges you have a God given constitutional RIGHT to own a firearm--you don't have a god given constitutional right to drive on the road. A MUCH higher bar should exist for removing a person's right to owning a firearm than removing a person's right to drive.
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mamabearCali
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Re: CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

Post by mamabearCali »

Well I am unsure of TX laws in concerning the exposure of firearms in private buildings. I am pretty sure in VA (where I live) as long as he was not acting in a threatening manner and was not doing so in the middle of the street there would be no crime. We can even open carry if we dare here. Now once the discharge happened he would be in a world of hurt depending on what county/city he was in--if he was in Cumberland--he would probably have to pay to fix the hole in his managers wall--if he was in downtown Richmond--May God have mercy on his soul.

As a side note--that showing an unloaded firearm to a friend in a private office place is a Class A misdemeanor is INSANE! You guys need to work harder on your gun laws there. You have a great castle law, but your laws concerning printing/open carry are nuts.
SAHM to four precious children. Wife to a loving husband.

"The women of this country learned long ago those without swords can still die upon them!" Eowyn in LOTR Two Towers
DONT TREAD ON ME

Re: CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

Post by DONT TREAD ON ME »

mamabearCali wrote:You know, with as many laws as we have on the books I am pretty sure we have all broken the law at some point in our lives--it is just a question of if we were caught or if the DA in the local county wants to take the time to prosecute. Look it up sometime the insane laws that we have on the books, you can end up in hot water for simply having a pen of rabbits in your back yard. So we can say "the laws the law" and throw the book at anyone who by malicious intent or moments of stupidity crosses a line that did not injure anyone, or we can have some sense and say "That was really stupid--don't you EVER do anything so stupid again--someone could be hurt" and let the police handle people who are actually causing havoc in our society.

I agre,e it is apples and oranges you have a God given constitutional RIGHT to own a firearm--you don't have a god given constitutional right to drive on the road. A MUCH higher bar should exist for removing a person's right to owning a firearm than removing a person's right to drive.
Again your completely ignoring the fact that he broke a law that is relevant to the CHL.
DONT TREAD ON ME

Re: CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

Post by DONT TREAD ON ME »

mamabearCali wrote:Well I am unsure of TX laws in concerning the exposure of firearms in private buildings. I am pretty sure in VA (where I live) as long as he was not acting in a threatening manner and was not doing so in the middle of the street there would be no crime. We can even open carry if we dare here. Now once the discharge happened he would be in a world of hurt depending on what county/city he was in--if he was in Cumberland--he would probably have to pay to fix the hole in his managers wall--if he was in downtown Richmond--May God have mercy on his soul.

As a side note--that showing an unloaded firearm to a friend in a private office place is a Class A misdemeanor is INSANE! You guys need to work harder on your gun laws there. You have a great castle law, but your laws concerning printing/open carry are nuts.
Seriously? You are arguing on this and you are unfamiliar with the relevant laws?

Not only that but you just stated that "once the discharge happened he would be in a world of hurt" in VA. So, why not here?

You also state that you are "pretty sure" on the law in Va. I suggest you learn and get very familiar with them or you could be the one "in a world of hurt" for doing something you were "pretty sure" you could.
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Re: CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

Post by speedsix »

...this may be unfair...but I'm going to say it...re-write the OPs story so that it was a doctor's office, where you and your children were waiting to have an ear infection treated...you hear an explosion in the next room and a .40 cal round smashes through the wall and misses your oldest child by an inch... I think, given this change in the story, your concern over the shooter's "rights" would be less important and your child's right to be safe in a public place would be paramount...those of us with experience in innocents being shot by idiots playing with guns tend to be able to stack those blocks in the correct order better...
DONT TREAD ON ME

Re: CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

Post by DONT TREAD ON ME »

mamabearCali wrote:As a side note--that showing an unloaded firearm to a friend in a private office place is a Class A misdemeanor is INSANE! You guys need to work harder on your gun laws there. You have a great castle law, but your laws concerning printing/open carry are nuts.
There are no laws regarding printing.
mamabearCali
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Re: CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

Post by mamabearCali »

DONT TREAD ON ME wrote:
mamabearCali wrote:Well I am unsure of TX laws in concerning the exposure of firearms in private buildings. I am pretty sure in VA (where I live) as long as he was not acting in a threatening manner and was not doing so in the middle of the street there would be no crime. We can even open carry if we dare here. Now once the discharge happened he would be in a world of hurt depending on what county/city he was in--if he was in Cumberland--he would probably have to pay to fix the hole in his managers wall--if he was in downtown Richmond--May God have mercy on his soul.

As a side note--that showing an unloaded firearm to a friend in a private office place is a Class A misdemeanor is INSANE! You guys need to work harder on your gun laws there. You have a great castle law, but your laws concerning printing/open carry are nuts.
Seriously? You are arguing on this and you are unfamiliar with the relevant laws?

Not only that but you just stated that "once the discharge happened he would be in a world of hurt" in VA. So, why not here?

You also state that you are "pretty sure" on the law in Va. I suggest you learn and get very familiar with them or you could be the one "in a world of hurt" for doing something you were "pretty sure" you could.
Sir I am not a lawyer! So I always hedge that I am pretty sure about this but if you really want to know this then ask a lawyer. I read no where in this thread or this forum that I had to be a subject matter expert in TX law to comment on something. If you want people who are ONLY subject matter experts to comment on stuff then there had better be a sign at the top that says "Unless you are lawyer don't bother commenting." Like I said, where I live, it would depend on where he was working whether a negligent discharge gets you in trouble with the boss or with the police. I stated a basic opinion that yep he was stupid, but in my opinion not stupid enough to lose his license. If TX law states otherwise--then I am glad I live in VA right now not TX.
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Keith B
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Re: CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

Post by Keith B »

mamabearCali wrote: As a side note--that showing an unloaded firearm to a friend in a private office place is a Class A misdemeanor is INSANE! You guys need to work harder on your gun laws there. You have a great castle law, but your laws concerning printing/open carry are nuts.
I wondered when it would come to this comparison. Not even close. As DTOM stated, not laws on printing. Has to be intentional ujnconcelament. And, if you want to compare state laws, look at your Virginia law on negligent discharge http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... d+18.2-279" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; It's a Class 6 Felony.
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