Minature 51% sign.

[Greybeard]

A student recently told me about a questionable 51% sign at a nearby location and I dropped by to check it out. It's at at Fuzzy's Tacos near FM2499 and Dixon in Flower Mound. Not only does the place not appear to be an actual 51%er, but the red 51% letters are only about 3" tall - with a version just like it the same size below in Spanish. I am not in the habit of frequenting the 51% locations, but must say this is the first I have seen of this kind. Before I drop a dime tomorrow, Steve, are you out there tonight?

[Pawpaw]

Gun Sign = BLUE

[Keith B]

From http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/publication ... de2004.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Page 109

On-premises retailers must post one of two different
weapons signs. If:
• you do not hold a Food and Beverage Certificate, and
your alcoholic beverage sales are 51% or more of your
business, use the “51% Weapons Warning Sign”
• you hold a Food and Beverage Certificate or you make
less than 51% of your income from the sale of alcoholic
beverages, use the “Notice Weapons Warning Sign”
On-premises retailers must:
• prominently display this sign on the premises at
each public entrance
• make sign at least 6 inches high and 14 inches wide
• use contrasting colors
• post the 51% sign at each entrance of place of business
The local district office provides these signs in English
and Spanish free of charge to retailers.
Note: The retailer may be required to display the sign in a
language other than English if a substantial portion of
customers speak another native language.

And, as already stated, Fuzzy's is NOT a 51% location.

[Greybeard]

As stated in the subject line and original post, comprendo on the unlikelihood of Fuzzy's needing anything other than the blue "unlicensed carry" sign. The issue I have with what I saw is the "minature" 51% signs. And to ask if these are "standard issue" by TABC??? When Section 411.204 of Government Code (at least in the latest CHL-16) still calls for the 51% to be in five inch red letters.
"(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number “51” printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public."

[srothstein]

The issue I have with what I saw is the "minature" 51% signs. And to ask if these are "standard issue" by TABC???

Those are not TABC issue. They have standard signs that they will issue to any licensed premise. But, TABC rules also allow any business to make their own signs and use them if desired. I have seen some places that have spent some money to make very nice wooden signs that meet TABC rules but fit in with the decor nicely. I have seen a few (not many) places that print their own larger signs (and I have no idea why).

These must have been printed by the store or some other supplier. But I have trouble figuring out why anyone would alter the sign from the original design. Of course, i don't understand why anyone would buy a sign when they could get it free, but that is a different problem.

[Greybeard]

Thanks Steve, for the explanation. I dropped a dime on 'em this morning. At Denton "outpost" and got recording that they are only open on Tuesdays. I suspect they may have a new sign by this time next week.

[sjfcontrol]

Thanks Steve, for the explanation. I dropped a dime on 'em this morning. At Denton "outpost" and got recording that they are only open on Tuesdays. I suspect they may have a new sign by this time next week.

What kind of business is only open on Tuesday's? Unless, of course, you're only selling hamburgers to Wimpy?

[Greybeard]

"What kind of business is only open on Tuesday's?" Our local TABC people. Last time I was up there, they had a cubicle in same room as Game Warden. They were nice enuf to give me the "real deal" on their 2 standard signs. I had em laminated and been using in classes since. That's part of the reason the minature signs were such a knuckleball.

Knowing the cost of real estate in the part of town where the Fuzzy's Eat Me Taco people recently opened, they may need to work 16 hours a day 7 days a week just to pay the rent. But I hope to see em do it with a blue sign instead of red.

[srothstein]

Many of the outposts that TABC has are small and only open one day like that. There is just one officer assigned to cover the county, so he spends most of the time on the road checking places out, but spends the one day in the office. It is a way for them to try to best manage their manpower and give medium sized counties an office. There are only about 300 agents to cover the state, so they have to do something.

DPS does this also. The licensing office in my county (Caldwell) is a branch of the Hays county office and is only open on Thursdays. I don't know how much business they do get even then since most people are in the habit of going to Guadalupe or Hays counties office to get business done.

[wgoforth]

Question....in the past I have said that bars are off limits whether they post a 51% or not, as they are auto no-carry. I have held that view as that is what we were taught in CHL class and an LEO taught it, so I ~assumed~ he was correct. We were told to check out the license on the wall, regardless of the signage. While that may be a good idea, it appears the bar must post a 51% sign just like any other business must post a 30.06 to be enforceable. I would hate to have to explain to a judge that I didn't know it was a bar (actually I am a tea tottler, so it only affects me as to what I teach to others). Of course one could argue that we didn't look over their books to know if they derived 51% of their revenue from alcohold sales or not. Thoughts?

[tbrown]

Question....in the past I have said that bars are off limits whether they post a 51% or not, as they are auto no-carry.

See (i) and (k) at the bottom of page 39. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/internetfo ... CHL-16.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have held that view as that is what we were taught in CHL class and an LEO taught it, so I ~assumed~ he was correct. We were told to check out the license on the wall, regardless of the signage. While that may be a good idea, it appears the bar must post a 51% sign just like any other business must post a 30.06 to be enforceable. I would hate to have to explain to a judge that I didn't know it was a bar (actually I am a tea tottler, so it only affects me as to what I teach to others). Of course one could argue that we didn't look over their books to know if they derived 51% of their revenue from alcohold sales or not. Thoughts?

I think you abstaining from alcohol doesn't change anything. First, it's illegal to carry in certain locations and it doesn't matter if you're sober, intoxicated, or high on life. Second, if you're intoxicated, it's illegal to carry under authority of your CHL and it doesn't matter if you're in a bar, a church, or the town square. Third, if you're intoxicated, it doesn't matter if it was caused by alcohol, prescription drugs, or OTC cough medicine.

[wgoforth]

Question....in the past I have said that bars are off limits whether they post a 51% or not, as they are auto no-carry.

See (i) and (k) at the bottom of page 39. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/internetfo ... CHL-16.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have held that view as that is what we were taught in CHL class and an LEO taught it, so I ~assumed~ he was correct. We were told to check out the license on the wall, regardless of the signage. While that may be a good idea, it appears the bar must post a 51% sign just like any other business must post a 30.06 to be enforceable. I would hate to have to explain to a judge that I didn't know it was a bar (actually I am a tea tottler, so it only affects me as to what I teach to others). Of course one could argue that we didn't look over their books to know if they derived 51% of their revenue from alcohold sales or not. Thoughts?

I think you abstaining from alcohol doesn't change anything. First, it's illegal to carry in certain locations and it doesn't matter if you're sober, intoxicated, or high on life. Second, if you're intoxicated, it's illegal to carry under authority of your CHL and it doesn't matter if you're in a bar, a church, or the town square. Third, if you're intoxicated, it doesn't matter if it was caused by alcohol, prescription drugs, or OTC cough medicine.

Well, didn't make myself clear. I am saying I do not go into bars, so it is not an issue for me but might be to the ones I instruct. I am not inquiring about intoxication, I am asking only about whether ~bars~ MUST have the legitimate 51%, or is it an auto no go with a firearm period, legitimately posted or not. I'm not sure what you are getting at about the illegal to carry in certain locations, I don't know that I or anyone hinted otherwise.

[Pawpaw]

You know how we're always telling people to read down to paragraph (i)?

Well, paragraph (k) has meaning too, as tbrown has already tried to point out.

PC §46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

<snip>

(k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code.

[Keith B]

A 51% location (aka 'bar') IS automatically off limits, sign or not. And, per TABC statutes, they are required to post a 51% sign properly. HOWEVER, even if they don't you are still breaking the law by entering while carrying. You CAN be arrested and charged. Then, your DEFENSE to argue for charges to be dropped would be 46.035 (k) as you were not aware that it was a 51% location as there was no sign posted. You still would be in violation by carrying in the bar, but could possibly get out of it. Prior to 46.035 (k) being put in (I believe it was in the 2009 session) there was no defense or argument you could use to try and explain why you didn't know you were in a prohibited location.

[wgoforth]

A 51% location (aka 'bar') IS automatically off limits, sign or not. And, per TABC statutes, they are required to post a 51% sign properly. HOWEVER, even if they don't you are still breaking the law by entering while carrying. You CAN be arrested and charged. Then, your DEFENSE to argue for charges to be dropped would be 46.035 (k) as you were not aware that it was a 51% location as there was no sign posted. You still would be in violation by carrying in the bar, but could possibly get out of it. Prior to 46.035 (k) being put in (I believe it was in the 2009 session) there was no defense or argument you could use to try and explain why you didn't know you were in a prohibited location.

THAT is exactly the kind of response I find helpful. Thanks!