Selecting 45 ACP defensive ammo

[speedsix]

...it's undisputed that a hit with a small bullet is better than a miss with a large one...
...it's possible, with practice, to hit with a big bullet...
...practice, practice, practice...now I think I have it right...

[CC Italian]

Yep, Andy C is right on and you guys know we have to talk about this every few months or so. This is a constant reoccurring thread that none of us can resist. As for the OPs original post(we probably gave the guy more questions then answers ) your shorter defender might benefit from the lighter grain 185s and your government should have no problem with the 230s. I know you said you wanted one weight for both and the only way I can think of to get 12+inchs of penetration, expansion etc etc in both guns with the same bullet is the Barnes 185 load. Though I have no experience with these in .45acp I will vouch for them 100% in a snub nose .38 and a 4in barrel model 10. Doesn't matter the barrel length they expand every time and penetrate deep. Oh and they also cost over $1.50 a round!!

Either way no matter what you choose even the 185 grain .45acp is serious business to anybody on the receiving end.

[A-R]

(and I think this is what FBI determined) penetration is king, expansion is important, shock is nice but not essential? something like that

It would be nice to have all of the above, but let's discuss a few issues:

Penetration - we need enough, but not too much. Penetration is a factor of a combination of many factors - the diameter of the bullet, bullet weight, design (eg. FMJ or HP - and what style of HP because some open sooner than others), velocity, part of the anatomy that's been hit and what the subject is wearing, etc, etc, etc...

Expansion - we'd like the bullet to expand if at all possible inside the guy - but if we get expansion too soon, it limits penetration. The biggest diameter bullet is useless if it just splats and opens up on the guy's sternum. We can get too much expansion (or even a blown-up bullet) from a bullet being poorly-designed or from being driven too fast by an over-enthusiastic handloader ("Heyyyy.... I'ma make this thing fly at 1,200 fps instead of those sissies who shoot it at 900 fps...") and it acts like a parachute. Expansion can be counter-productive in the weaker calibers, too - we don't want to sacrifice penetration for expansion. Penetrate first then expand - ie controlled expansion for that caliber.

Shock - meh. I can't count on that or control it, so I don't concern myself over it.

It comes down to bullet Placement, Penetration and Persistence (ie. shoot again if you need to) - buying an awesome bullet isn't a substitute for poor skills.

Thanks Andy, this really makes a lot of sense to me.

My one nagging question has always been light/fast vs. heavy/slow bullets - but I've always answered it sorta the way you do by saying if the R&D guys did their job right BOTH will work given the right circumstances and shot placement. Because it's not just weight and speed, but also the composition of the bullet itself and what it's hitting. Your earlier example of the Weatherby issue of too light a bullet moving too fast and blowing up but not killing the animal makes a lot of sense.

BALANCE seems to be the key - too much or too little of anything upsets the balance of the result you're trying to achieve.

Fascinating stuff - and yes I hear all of you and agree with you that placement and persistence matter more than bullet (I am finally carrying a .45 regularly now but I'm also hitting with it consistently too - only 10 points down and no shot worse than a -1 for the whole match with my M&P45 last IDPA outing )

Anyway, apologies to the OP for going so far off the deep end into the wound ballistics stuff - but like Mojo said, it makes fun locker room banter

[A-R]

...it's undisputed that a hit with a small bullet is better than a miss with a large one...
...it's possible, with practice, to hit with a big bullet...
...practice, practice, practice...now I think I have it right...

You and me both

[APynckel]

Andy C,

We need to just be referred to as, "The Andy's"

.... APynckel