Rethinking 45 +p

[olafpfj]

I've been carrying my M&P45c loaded with Winchester Rangers 230gr +p for a number of months now. I finally got around to doing a true test of my carry load, which is to say that I started my range session shooting through my loaded mag and spare mag as well as the one in the chamber. Got myself setup and drew the pistol from my holster and proceeded to shoot through the two mags and the first shot kind of surprised me a little. I don't remember these rounds being that snappy when I tried them out originally. Second shot was also a little snappy and I noticed that I was ending up holding really high so if I were trying a quick follow up shot it would be about head high or worse. I shot the remainder of the 2 mags and while I shot quite accurately I was certainly having issues getting back on target.

I was trying to figure out why this was more of an issue this range trip than when I first evaluated this load. The only difference was in when I shot the +p Rangers during each range session. When I first got them, I shot them at the end of my session after the gun and I were both plenty warmed up. This trip, however, I shot my carry load cold from the holster and it was a bit startling. After I had shot through my 17 rds I switched to some PMC 230gr ball and whadda ya know...I can keep the front sight right on the target shot after shot. I finished with the last 8 rds from the Winchester +p box and, sure enough, they didn't seem quite so startling or hard to handle after I had already put 70 rds down range.

As much as it has been said on this forum about knowing your carry load it was enlightening to really see the difference between shooting a +p load when you're cold and when you're warmed up. I'll need to find somewhere to try doing double taps and failure drills to see whether or not the Ranger +p's egregiously affect my ability to make follow up shots. They clearly have a negative affect but to what degree that would impact a follow up shot I don't rightly know as I wasn't shooting rapid fire or double tapping.

Reminded me that in a DGU situation you don't have 50-100rds to get warmed up...you have that first mag of 8-12 and thats it...game over...

Anyway...musings from todays range trip. If anyone would like to weigh in, please do...

I also have some Hornady Critical Defense 185gr that I originally carried for a while that I think I should revisit.

[Jumping Frog]

Interesting observation.

I carry the same Ranger 230 gr +P round. Before I started carrying them, I shot 100 of them at the range. However, like you, it was the end of my session and I was not "cold".

I think I am going to have to shoot them at my next IDPA match to have a little more realistic look at them.

[Seabear]

I doubt in a bad situation you would notice the recoil, however, I also doubt that many of us would be paying attention to fundamentals like "grip" etc when firing under stress. This is pretty apparent when you watch videos of shootouts between LEO and bad guys when bullets fly and nobody gets hit. I do think you are on to something though.

Like I always tell my students, don't just practice, practice correctly and how you plan to shoot if you need to. In my opinion it doesn't do much for a person if they practice with 38 wad cutters and then carry plus P or .357 . It is possible that there would be a certain amount of shock to the extra recoil, like you are talking about when shooting "cold". Sounds like more practice with the ammo we carry is in order.

[2firfun50]

This topic got me thinking as I'm in the break-in, get acquainted stage with my new Kahr cw45. There is a neat calculator over on handloads.com that I found interesting, especially when comparing some 1 shot stop percentages. Looking at the data, my observations are:

1. 230 FMJ is no better a 1 shot stopper and maybe worse than a good 380 JHP. And is worse than a good 9 mm JHP.
2. 230 gr JHP is not much better than a 185 JHP with less muzzle energy and momentum which should translate into less felt recoil.
3. Less felt recoil should translate into better accuracy and encourage more practice.
4. Under stress, the first shot may be less accurate than the first "cold" shot at the range.
5. One needs to be able to respond quickly with a follow-up shot on the original BG (not likely with a well placed .45 JHP first shot), or quickly engage a 2nd or possibly 3rd BG (much more probable).

As a handloader, with will be pretty straight forward to duplicate the recoil and point of impact of a 185 JHP defensive load with a less expensive range bullet. More practice.

For the nonhandloader, standard pressure 185 JHP are less expensive than +P ammo. More practice with what you carry.

There will be less punishment on the shooter, the wallet, and the firearm with no loss in effectiveness in a self defense situation.

You'll lose the "my bang is bigger than yours" monkey dance, but so what?

[MoJo]

Several of the guys that are really "in the know" about such things say the use of +P 230 gr .45ACP is for the gun rather than the bad guy. The +P ammo will help the gun to function in adverse circumstances like extreme cold, very dirty gun, weak grip etc. Things you are more likely to encounter in an LEO situation rather than a CHL situation where our guns are cleaned and maintained religiously. By extreme cold I am not talking of the Texas definition of extreme cold (45 degrees) but the up North definition of 40 below and dropping. With 185 gr bullets the same guys say +P for sure that way the BG will know he was shot. 200 gr what ever you like.

Cold practice is good. Using your carry ammo or, a reasionable replica of it tells you what you need to focus on in your training.

My carry ammo in .45 ACP is 230gr Federal HST non +P. My .40 carry ammo is CorBon DPX and in 9mm I prefer the DPX 115 gr +P. 9mm and .38 special are the only +P ammo I use.

edit: While Marshall and Sanow's work is controversial to say the least one must take into consideration there has been no new data collected since 9/11/2001. Also you must know what constitutes a one shot stop. They decided that if the target gave up (stopped) within 5 seconds from one hit that was a one shot stop. They didn't take into consideration where the hit was only one hit and five seconds time. A hit to the hand where the BG drops his gun wets his pants and falls down crying for his mommy is the same as a hit to the CNS causing almost instant death. If the BG was double tapped before the five seconds elapsed they threw that one out and if he went down in 6 seconds that was also not included. The key is to look at the NUMBER of shootings and the NUMBER of OSS to get a better picture of what happened.

[2firfun50]

In my way of thinking, a 1 shot stop is the threat is ended. I don't really care if they are running home to momma or dead right there. I moved up to .45 acp to reduce the need to double tap or deliver follow up shots which might be twisted around in court. My mission is defense and stop the threat as opposed to a hunting situation which is a humane kill before the muzzle blast gets there.

.45 +P ammunition is more recoil than I can handle for training situations and I believe in training with what you carry. I train to deliver 1 well placed shot on a single or multiple threats and a follow up shot if I must.

The earlier comment on trying the +P carry ammo in the next IDPA match was dead on the money. I haven't had the pleasure of getting to try it yet, but looks like very good practice and a lot of fun. If your scores go down, +P probably isn't the carry ammo for you.

[olafpfj]

I've read the data about one shot stops ad nauseum. Ultimately after years of pouring over every last article and study I can find, I've come to the conclusion that you will find someone championing or bashing every caliber and load. So that being said I've come to the personal conclusion that one should find a load they like, and go with it since the data seems to support the idea that it kind of doesn't matter what you use, FMJ vs JHP excepted.

So why did I choose to carry Ranger 230gr +P's? The more I read the more I got the impression that it didn't matter much what load you choose so long as it functions in the gun and you can shoot it comfortably. I decided to play the unknowable advantage card. I thought that since I'm carrying to protect myself and my family I should give myself every advantage I can get and stack the deck as much in my favor as possible. 45 is bigger than 9mm and might make a difference. 230gr is has more mass and that might make a difference. +P is faster and hits harder and that might make a difference. Will any of those factors ultimately matter? Probably not, but it could and thats why I have chosen to carry that load.

Now...of course none of that matters if I can't hit the target which is what prompted me to start this thread. Maybe I was having an off day at the range but like I said originally...you don't get to warm up or prepare for a DGU so you better make it count when you're cold and rusty. The recoil wasn't really that big a deal but I noticed that I really had to concentrate much more on getting back down on target. My natural reset point kept climbing unlike when I shoot a normal load which is to be expected when the load is too much for one to handle. I can't say whether or not the muzzle rise was unacceptable since it wasn't like I was pointing at the ceiling after each shot like you would after shooting a big .500 revolver. I was still Minute of Man for a follow up shot but I did find it concerning that I hadn't experienced it as badly as I did the other day.

I hadn't thought about the +P's making the gun cycle more reliably but that makes sense.

Much to think about and I am enjoying other points of view.

[Jumping Frog]

The earlier comment on trying the +P carry ammo in the next IDPA match was dead on the money.. . . . If your scores go down, +P probably isn't the carry ammo for you.

Actually, if my scores go down I'll shoot +P at every match!

IDPA is like golf. The lower the score, the better. Lowest score wins.

[olafpfj]

The earlier comment on trying the +P carry ammo in the next IDPA match was dead on the money.. . . . If your scores go down, +P probably isn't the carry ammo for you.

Actually, if my scores go down I'll shoot +P at every match!

IDPA is like golf. The lower the score, the better. Lowest score wins.

One of these days I have to give IDPA a try. I used to shoot in an archery league when I was in junior high and HS and have bee really missing league shooting lately. I will add it to the list of things to do...

[v-rog]

I believe it come down to practice (muscle memory) and technique (speed & accuracy) under pressure.

[Seabear]

I believe it come down to practice (muscle memory) and technique (speed & accuracy) under pressure.

That's why I like Steel Challenge, maybe not as "active " as IDPA or other matches, but it still puts you under the clock, and speed and accuracy are the ticket. One more reason I enjoy shooting it with a 6 shot revolver. It makes my mind work on the principle of one shot one kill, as quickly as possible. It also trains me to keep count of my shots, therefore I am never surprised by a "click".

[zero4o3]

I believe it come down to practice (muscle memory) and technique (speed & accuracy) under pressure.