Castle Doctrine and USACOE Park

[healthman]

I am planning a trip to Lake Whitney State Park in our RV.  I always carry when traveling and since Whitney is a Corp of Engineers park, they don't allow any weapons or ammo.  What am I supposed to do in this situation?  I am not going to leave my gun at home, so do I unload it and lock it up when I get there or ????  I asked this question to a CHL Instructor and he said that as long as the gun was kept in my RV and I didn't carry it in the park, then the Castle Law of 2007 would apply. Thanks in advance for your help.  John

[PUCKER]

My view - better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

[sjfcontrol]

I am planning a trip to Lake Whitney State Park in our RV.  I always carry when traveling and since Whitney is a Corp of Engineers park, they don't allow any weapons or ammo.  What am I supposed to do in this situation?  I am not going to leave my gun at home, so do I unload it and lock it up when I get there or ????  I asked this question to a CHL Instructor and he said that as long as the gun was kept in my RV and I didn't carry it in the park, then the Castle Law of 2007 would apply. Thanks in advance for your help.  John

I don't have a solution for you, but...

The COE restriction is Federal (i would think, anyway), and so I doubt that a state law would override it. I'm presuming your RV will be parked (camped?) in the park.

And come to think of it, the Castle law simply defines justification for the use of deadly force. It doesn't have anything to do with where guns are allowed or not.

[RPB]

Castle Doctrine has nothing to do with it.

I believe you were given incorrect advice based upon a misunderstanding or missreading of 46.02

(a-2) For purposes of this section, "premises" includes real property and a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection, "recreational vehicle" means a motor vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains temporary living quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters.

(a-3) For purposes of this section, "watercraft" means any boat, motorboat, vessel, or personal watercraft, other than a seaplane on water, used or capable of being used for transportation on water.

Generally, State law, doesn't over ride a Federal law.

The fact that Chapter 46.02 Texas Penal Code states that a recreational vehicle is a "residence" does not mean you can drive your RV into a Post Office or Federal Court while it has a gun in it which is prohibited by the US Code..

Easier to understand is:

46.02 (State Law) also allows concealed carry in a watercraft (just like in an RV)
a handgun conceal carried in your boat on Lake Whitney is prohibited, because it's US ACE property. (Fed Law)
Concealed carry is permitted in your automobile under 46.02 State Law, but not in a US ACE parking lot. (Fed law)
Therefore:
You can have a gun in your RV-Residence under 46.02 State Law) , but not on a US ACE property (Fed law)
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.46.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or

(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

I suspect you either need to 1) find somewhere to store your guns near their property where guns are forbidden or
what I do ...2) stop supporting such places and visit places such as LCRA lakes and places like Inks Lake State Park where guns and licensees/gun owners are welcome.

[recaffeination]

Castle Doctrine has nothing to do with it.

Castle Doctrine applies to the use force or deadly force. Not carrying.

Worse, a DA could argue that if you were carrying in violatin of Federal Law then you don't qualify for the Castle Doctrine protection for the use of force or deadly force.

You = OP.
I know RPB knows this.

[Salty1]

I would very simply have it well hidden in the RV, they would need probable cause and a warrant to search it. Having a secure lock box someplace hidden and secured in the RV could also come in handy as well for storing both the handgun and other valuables when going for a swim or a long walk... I would look at creating a false floor in one of the bottom cabinets... best of luck on your trip..

[bkj]

If you contact the CLEO for TPWD, It was a Mr. Ericson when I talked to him, he will tell you the CHL on ALL state parks is OK. Even if it is ACOE, because TPWD is the controlling authority. The lake is controlled by ACOE so do not take your gun in the boat. 512/389-4828

[couzin]

If you contact the CLEO for TPWD, It was a Mr. Ericson when I talked to him, he will tell you the CHL on ALL state parks is OK. Even if it is ACOE, because TPWD is the controlling authority. The lake is controlled by ACOE so do not take your gun in the boat. 512/389-4828

Sorry bkj - Mr. Ericson is wrong - USACE remains the controlling authority. TPWD is the managing authority. The property is leased to the State and the lease language specifically states USACE and Federal rules and regulations and statutes are still applicable and enforceable.

[C-dub]

If you contact the CLEO for TPWD, It was a Mr. Ericson when I talked to him, he will tell you the CHL on ALL state parks is OK. Even if it is ACOE, because TPWD is the controlling authority. The lake is controlled by ACOE so do not take your gun in the boat. 512/389-4828

Sorry bkj - Mr. Ericson is wrong - USACE remains the controlling authority. TPWD is the managing authority. The property is leased to the State and the lease language specifically states USACE and Federal rules and regulations and statutes are still applicable and enforceable.

That's like Dallas initially trying to pass off Fair Park as being under someone else's management. Sorry guys, it still belongs to the City of Dallas and the lake is still under the control of the ACOE.

[healthman]

Well, I guess I will play it safe and leave it at home locked up and take my Kimber Pepper Blaster. I guess something is better than nothing... I guess the potential bad guy will get a face full of pepper gel and a kick in the nuts. Thanks for all of the input...

[speedsix]

...scroll down through the FAQ and you'll have it right from the horse's mouth... http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/belton/faq.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...and this link features homework done by someone called RPB...sounds familiar!!! http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/gun- ... parks.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RPB]

Yep
Texas (Carter Smith) once thought that State Parks on USACE land were ok, but said to contact Wes Masur to check viewtopic.php?f=7&t=188&p=360164&hilit= ... ur#p360103" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
but Texas Wes Masur, Director, State Park Law Enforcement got with the USACE and they both now say no guns on ACE OWNED property, no matter who manages it

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=45058&p=547708&hili ... ur#p547708" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RPB]

U.S. Army Corps of Engineers - Frequently Asked Questions
http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/belton/faq.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
May I have a firearm in the park? A concealed handgun permit is not valid on Federal property. The possession of a firearm and/or ammunition is prohibited.

State may lease "FEDERAL PROPERTY" BUT IT'S STILL owned by ... THEREFORE PROHIBITED
Your CHL is "not valid" on USACE property, and they don't care what State Laws are.

Link to post containing link to memo
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34417&p=405278&hili ... ce#p405278" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

February 22, 2010
New Federal Law Pertaining To Firearms on National Park/National Wildlife Service Lands Is Not Applicable at USACE Projects and Facilities
All -- a new law regarding firearms on some specific federal properties takes effect next week. This is not new information for us, and we have been reviewing it for quite a while. Counsel has been fully engaged. We offer the following guidance:

1. Section 512 of the Credit Card Act of 2009 (Public Law 111-024) pertains to possession of firearms and allows an individual to possess an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park Service or National Wildlife Refuge System provided that the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm and the possession is in compliance with the law of the State in which the National Park/Refuge is located. This law becomes effective on 22 February 2010 on property under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service or the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

2. Public Law 111-024 does not apply to Corps projects or facilities. The passage of this new law does not affect application of Title 36 regulations (36 C.F.R., Chapter III, Part 327, Rules and Regulations Governing Public Use of COE Water Resources Development Projects). 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a) prohibits the possession of loaded firearms or ammunition on lands and waters administered by the Corps unless one of the exceptions in 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a)(1)-(4) applies. The full text of 36 C.F.R. can be viewed on the NRM Gateway at: http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/employ ... itle36.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

3. 36 C.F.R. § 327.13 remains in full force and effect. It will continue to prohibit loaded concealed weapons on Corps properties regardless of the new law and notwithstanding any contrary provisions of State law. It remains Corps policy that we will not honor State-issued concealed weapon permits on our facilities and that District Commanders do not have discretion under 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a)(4) to create blanket exceptions to this policy. A change of this nature to Corps regulations in 36 C.F.R. Part 327 would require formal rulemaking procedures under the Administrative Procedures Act (5 U.S.C. §§ 551-706).

4. It is incumbent upon us to communicate and reinforce our firearms regulation with our visitors and partners, which may include posting park entrances with No Firearms signs IAW the Corps sign manual (EP 310-1-6a and EP 310-1-6b) and taking other actions deemed necessary by Operations Project Managers as coordinated appropriately with other Corps elements. Information related to this matter will also be posted for public awareness on the NRM Gateway.

5. HQUSACE POCs for this matter are Stephen Austin, Natural Resources Manager, Operations (for Visitor Assistance policy and program administration information), 202-761-4489, stephen.b.austin@usace.army.mil; and Milt Boyd, Assistant Counsel, Office of Chief Counsel (for regulatory questions on federal lands) at 202-761-8546, Milton.W.Boyd@usace.army.mil.

Provided for your attention and appropriate action.
Michael G. Ensch, SES

[healthman]

The USACOE rules regarding no firearms is rediculous. I have the right to transport and conceal carry a firearm while I am traveling, but what I am I supposed to do to when I get to the park? My point is that I shouldn't have to ditch it or avoid a COE park because of their stupid rule. I can legally concealed carry in my local Bank, but not in a park which the Army built?????? Duh, what do they think CHL people are gonna do, go in and wreak havoc and shoot everything that moves???? So, so STUPID!!!! If the FBI and State Police checks me out and awards me the right to conceal carry, then the USACOE should accomodate this. I say that when you get to the COE Park, you should be able to show your credentials to the ranger, manager, or whoever is in charge and they then treat you just like a police officer would concerning your right to be armed, if you got pulled over. I don't really have a problem leaving my firearm locked in the car while I run into the post office or social security office because that is local and I am not spending the night there. The problem is when we are far from home, on the road with our RV and I am legal until I get to one of these "federal" parks.. They have set us up for failure to be able to comply with their rediculous law... The whole thing stinks and is not fair to the law abiding citizens that have their CHL....

[sjfcontrol]

The USACOE rules regarding no firearms is rediculous. I have the right to transport and conceal carry a firearm while I am traveling, but what I am I supposed to do to when I get to the park? My point is that I shouldn't have to ditch it or avoid a COE park because of their stupid rule. I can legally concealed carry in my local Bank, but not in a park which the Army built?????? Duh, what do they think CHL people are gonna do, go in and wreak havoc and shoot everything that moves???? So, so STUPID!!!! If the FBI and State Police checks me out and awards me the right to conceal carry, then the USACOE should accomodate this. I say that when you get to the COE Park, you should be able to show your credentials to the ranger, manager, or whoever is in charge and they then treat you just like a police officer would concerning your right to be armed, if you got pulled over. I don't really have a problem leaving my firearm locked in the car while I run into the post office or social security office because that is local and I am not spending the night there. The problem is when we are far from home, on the road with our RV and I am legal until I get to one of these "federal" parks.. They have set us up for failure to be able to comply with their rediculous law... The whole thing stinks and is not fair to the law abiding citizens that have their CHL....

Yes.