Confusion About 51% Sign

[alphonso]

So, my wife and I decide to meet some friends at a resturant/bar. I look the place up on the TABC website and learn that it is posted "blue" (that is, not 51%). I'm DD for the night and will not be drinking, at all, not a drop.

We get there and, lo and behold, there is a big red 51% sign near the door.

I put my pistol in the car and went in. I got a chance to speak to the owner (not manager, owner) and he tells me he is 51% because of the type of liquor liscence he has and that it doesn't have any thing to do with the ratio of food to alcohol he sells.

1) Is there such a liscense?
2) In a case where the TABC and the club owner disagree, who holds trump?
3) Would a 51% sign constitute notice even if the place was not techincally 51%

Sometimes I feel like I'm going to have to go to law school to understand the ins and outs of legal carry. Thanks in advance for any help or clarification.

[C-dub]

He may have posted the wrong sign. I think, IIRC, the TABC sends a packet with all the signs and it is up to the establishment to post the correct one based on their license. OTOH, if his license does say RED then he posted the correct sign and he's clueless about his finances.

[apostate]

I put my pistol in the car and went in. I got a chance to speak to the owner (not manager, owner) and he tells me he is 51% because of the type of liquor liscence he has and that it doesn't have any thing to do with the ratio of food to alcohol he sells.

1) Is there such a liscense?
2) In a case where the TABC and the club owner disagree, who holds trump?
3) Would a 51% sign constitute notice even if the place was not techincally 51%

1. There are license types that can't be 51% but I don't know any that are automatically 51%.
There may be some types where all licensees, in practice, get at least 51% from alcohol but the determination is still based on sales. (actual or TABC estimates)

2. The opinion of the club owner is irrelevant for the purposes of 46.035 (but he can post 30.06 if he chooses.)
The law says "if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission"

3. The 51% sign is legally meaningless for CHL if the business isn't 51% as determined by TABC. You may be arrested if you do a poor job of concealing, and the peace officer is unsure of the nuances, but you shouldn't be convicted. (IANAL)

[WildBill]

IANAL, but I believe the owner is confused. Some establishments are licensed for only beer and wine, while others can also sell spirits. I think that is why he is confused about the 51% designation.

[RPB]

he tells me he is 51% because of the type of liquor liscence he has

Then it would be simple to look at the actual license to which he refers, and see if/that it says "blue" instead of "red" too

I'd Report the location to TABC for TABC to offer him further instruction and correction of the incorrect signage.
http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/enforcement ... cation.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[alphonso]

RBP,

Good point. I asked him to take a look at it later and make sure. He said he didn't have to look at it because he was sure.

[MoJo]

Well don't argue with the owner just call TABC and let them do the 'splainin.

[jmorris]

RBP,

Good point. I asked him to take a look at it later and make sure. He said he didn't have to look at it because he was sure.

Should be on public display, ask where it's at.

The one that confuses me is a winery that has a store front where they sell drinks and bottles. 51% may not be consumed on the premises but the license doesn't even have a place for red/blue.

[RPB]

RBP,

Good point. I asked him to take a look at it later and make sure. He said he didn't have to look at it because he was sure.

Yeah. I accidentally agitated an elderly fellow at supper once who didn't need to see the laws because he was sure that carrying a loaded gun in the car was illegal and that there was no such thing as a concealed handgun license in Texas.

Willful blindness ... lots of people have it.

A girl I raised ... said her kindergarten teacher said you spell red "red" so the word "read" can't be spelled that way as a past tense .... she didn't need to look in a dictionary, because she was sure there's only one way to spell it.

I chuckle at that mentality from a kindergartner, it's sad that some older people do it.

People who think they know it all are particularly annoying to us who do.

Well don't argue with the owner just call TABC and let them do the 'splainin.

[WildBill]

The opinion of the club owner is irrelevant for the purposes of 46.035 (but he can post 30.06 if he chooses.)
The law says "if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission"

3. The 51% sign is legally meaningless for CHL if the business isn't 51% as determined by TABC. You may be arrested if you do a poor job of concealing, and the peace officer is unsure of the nuances, but you shouldn't be convicted. (IANAL)

I think that this is what causes most of the confusion. Think about the meaning of the 51% without the CHL implications.

The TABC wants to know if the business is a bar or restaurant. By law, the opinion of the business owner is not relevant, but the revenue is. I don't know if there are tax or other legal considerations such as zoning, but the TABC doesn't want a bar to be classified as a restaurant just because they sell Slim Jims and pickled pigs feet.

There appears to be a legal need to be classified as one or the other. IMO, even though a high end restaurant may sell more dollars from booze and overpriced wine than food, the business is still a restaurant and not a bar. IANAL so YMMV.

[alphonso]

I'm the OP.

I've been carrying CHL for about 10 years and have met several business owners who do not understand the law. Mostly our conversations have just caused me to want to pull my hair out.

A while back I had a chat with a manager who simply could not understand why having both a red 51% and a blue "NOTICE unliscensed guns prohibited" sign posted side by side was confusing and contradictory. Her position was "no guns is no guns, period".

Sigh....

[WildBill]

I'm the OP.

I've been carrying CHL for about 10 years and have met several business owners who do not understand the law. Mostly our conversations have just caused me to want to pull my hair out.

A while back I had a chat with a manager who simply could not understand why having both a red 51% and a blue "NOTICE unliscensed guns prohibited" sign posted side by side was confusing and contradictory. Her position was "no guns is no guns, period".

Sigh....

Prior to taking the class and getting my CHL I was very confused about the various gun signs in Texas.

[chasfm11]

I'm the OP.

I've been carrying CHL for about 10 years and have met several business owners who do not understand the law. Mostly our conversations have just caused me to want to pull my hair out.

A while back I had a chat with a manager who simply could not understand why having both a red 51% and a blue "NOTICE unliscensed guns prohibited" sign posted side by side was confusing and contradictory. Her position was "no guns is no guns, period".

Sigh....

I'd bet that you would be completely hairless if you talked with half the population of Texas. As much discussion as there is on this forum, there is no equivalent among the general population so everyone is left on their own to figure out the meaning of things. It is estimated, for example, that 50% of the Texas RV owners with vehicles over the magic 26,000lb limit don't have the proper driver's license. If you call the DPS to inquire about that license, you are likely to get 3 wrong answers out of 5 inquires. The RV license requirements are crystal clear compared to the TPC for handguns.

Earlier on my life, I sometimes would go on a mission to help people who clearly didn't understand the rules in a given situation. Now, I just smile and remember that ignorance is bliss. There sure seem to be a lot of blissful folks.

[jeffrw]

...ignorance is bliss. There sure seem to be a lot of blissful folks.

[alphonso]

I'd bet that you would be completely hairless if you talked with half the population of Texas.

Chas,

That made me smile and is truer than rent...