CHL Legal Service.

[Aces2]

Question for instructors:

The CHL instructor in my class pushed a legal firm that provides legal services to CHL holders involved in an SD shooting.

The instructor was signing up students during class to purchase this legal service. This did not seem ethical. He used scare tactic scenarios to push this service. I'm sure he is getting a finder's fee.

Are CHL instructors allowed to do this? Should this be reported to TXDPS?

[Jumping Frog]

Well, I am certain an instructor will come along and verify one way or the other. It is my impression that they can pitch this service, but it does not count towards the required class time. If they are pitching it during what would otherwise be lunch or a break, for example, then I have no problem with an instructor having the liberty and freedom to do so.

Anyway, I see it is your first post, so WELCOME!

[TexasGal]

If the time spent on it was very long or you felt it was coercive/unethical then report it to the DPS. They will investigate it.

I apologize to you that your experience in your class left this bad impression. I assure you there are many professional instructors who do not employ or condone the heavy handed tactic you have described.

The State of Texas has not approved of any single legal defense service/prepay, etc. The DPS Officer who instructs the State training classes for CHL Instructors has stated clearly in the recent Instructor training classes that DPS does not want CHL Instructors to push such services during the mandated 10 hours of instruction. I have asked this same officer just how such services might be offered. He was adamant that they not be pushed to the class during class time. IF those services are being offered SEPARATELY from the class and the students have a CHOICE to either check them out or not during breaks, then that might be more acceptable. At no time should students be made to listen to a pitch as a captive audience when they are supposed to be hearing the mandated subjects the State wants taught. At no time should they feel the instructor representing the State of Texas is pressuring them to sign up for such a service. Period. The State is re-writing the Administration Rules and I was told there would very likely be changes in it that will rein in such behavior. This is also the case for anything pitched during class time; range services, legal services, armorer services, gun sales, etc.

As for a finder's fee, yes at least one of the legal services does pay instructors a small amount for signing up students. It is likely some instructors pressure their students to sign up right away to make more money, but I can tell you of some I know who want their students to get the coverage because they truly ARE concerned about the financial hardship that can happen to you in a self defense shooting and this service seems to be good coverage in their opinions Some instructors are passionately against paying for any legal coverage for themselves or anyone else. You need to consider for yourself if you think you might need such a service and then investigate what is available. You should not have been pressured to decide and sign up with a particular one while attending your class or be made to listen to the pitch instead of what you were supposed to be hearing.

I want to welcome you to the forum. You will find it to be a very useful resource for you and there are some great people here who will do all they can to help you if you need information. Staying connected to the CHL community in our state is important to protecting your right to carry.
Thank you for posting this concern. I think instructors who see themselves in your complaint will have some food for thought.

[Crossfire]

All of those legal services pay CHL instructors a commission, and they market aggresively to instructors. That tells me this must be a very high profit product!

I refuse to allow them into my classes, and I don't market for them. I don't have the time, or the patience to put up with them. And I won't subject my students to the same.

[longtooth]

I have had 2 contact me. I listened to the 1st & said no. When the 2ne calld some time later & did not even listen. I do the same as Crossfire even though I didnt know about the high profit.

[AEA]

It would seem to me that if they accept a commission payment for selling a service, they would have to report and pay tax on the amount they receive since it is not a "Training" they supply.

Not only is it unethical in my opinion, it could be illegal if the instructors pushing this product are not paying taxes on their income from this scheme.

[Aces2]

Thanks for all the replies.

The sales pitch was done during the 10 hour class portion, not during the breaks.

A good hour was spent on the scare tactic scenarios, and signing up students for the legal service.

I was the only student out of six that declined to sign up for the service.

I am not knocking the actual service, if someone wants to purchase it.

I just thought it was unprofessional to push it during the class time.

[57Coastie]

Thanks for all the replies.

The sales pitch was done during the 10 hour class portion, not during the breaks.

A good hour was spent on the scare tactic scenarios, and signing up students for the legal service.

I was the only student out of six that declined to sign up for the service.

I am not knocking the actual service, if someone wants to purchase it.

I just thought it was unprofessional to push it during the class time.

You are off to a good start here, Aces2. Welcome aboard. It was more than just unprofessional -- as described by you it merits an immediate report to DPS. Your ethical sense as reflected here would, I expect, lead you to make that report. To not do so just encourages it being done again and again.

Jim

[Keith B]

Thanks for all the replies.

The sales pitch was done during the 10 hour class portion, not during the breaks.

A good hour was spent on the scare tactic scenarios, and signing up students for the legal service.

I was the only student out of six that declined to sign up for the service.

I am not knocking the actual service, if someone wants to purchase it.

I just thought it was unprofessional to push it during the class time.

You shoudl contact DPS. This is not an appropriate use of class time and the instructor needs to be corrected on this.

[TexasGal]

That was clearly inappropriate. I would report it. The DPS is very protective of the integrity of the CHL program in Texas. They want to know when things like this are happening. Thank you for coming forward.

[AEA]

Here's a question........
If he does report it to DPS and by doing so confirms that he received one hour less than the subscribed training time, will they invalidate his and other's CHL's that were in that class?

[Crossfire]

I would seriously doubt that DPS would hold it against you for something that was outside of your control.

[sjfcontrol]

I would seriously doubt that DPS would hold it against you for something that was outside of your control.

Didn't they do that, though, with the students in the classes where the instructor was ??? (either selling CHL-100s, or bypassing the range portion, or both. Don't remember now.) Seems it would depend on how much of a stickler they wanted to be.

I would think any instructor that wanted to do this could claim it was material relating to the rather broad "handgun use" category. Except that DPS apparently disallows it.

[Crossfire]

Doing something that you should know is illegal - ie: "buying" a CHL-100 and bypassing class or range, is a whole lot different than being held captive to a presentation by [Pre-paid legal service] or CHLPP. The student did nothing wrong here.

[croc870]

I have to disagree on both points here.

Although I don't recommend any of these services during my classes personally, I believe you can justify spending class time on them. If people really thing there is something wrong with instructors doing this, they should push for an administrative rule or statue to be put in place against them. If you believe that the instructor is in violation of a requirement, then post the requirement that is being violated.

I constantly see people encouraging students to "report the instructor" because he or she is teaching something they disagree with. If instructors can be sanctioned for using this material, then what prevents them from being sanctioned for teaching that a round should or should not be kept in the chamber? The beauty of written law and codes is that the requirements are not left up to individual opinion. As I see it: the instructor is demonstrating past legal cases (laws related to use of force) and providing a program to ease possible future problems. I might not do it myself, but I don't want a bureaucrat simply deciding that he or she doesn't believe that is appropriate.

My second thought is a little bit simpler. If you believe this issue is serious enough to report to the state, then you should also have the courage to confront the instructor about it. I understand that the middle of class might not be the best time to do it. I also understand why someone might wait until after receiving certification. I do believe it's immature to report someone to the authorities without having the courage to confront the individual first however.