Weapons retention: I was lucky, not for the reason you think

nitrogen · Post by **nitrogen** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:20 pm

About a year ago, I took some basic krav-maga classes while visiting my folks back in Phoenix from a friend of mine. One of the things he taught me was basic weapon retention. BAsically, slam your hand down on the grabbers hand and your weapon, and then push the grabber or their arm away.

Well, I'm at home depot and I feel a tug at my weapon. Instinctively, I slam my hand down on my weapon, and spin around to push the grabber out of my way.

Well, I executed a perfect retention drill.

..on a 5 year old boy. Since he was so short, I managed to slam him in the face instead of slamming his arm.

I was lucky, because his dad didn't instantly beat the tar out of me. he saw what happened. I was extremely lucky because the kid's dad was also a CHLer.
"I TOLD YOU *NEVER* TO GRAB A GUN, SON! YOU KNOW BETTER! WHAT WERE YOU THINKING??"

Honestly, I don't know what I could have done differently in this situation, but again, something to think about: curious small children that might be able to see things underneith your cover garments. There has to be a better way of handling a situation like that than exerting force against a small child. (Of course, I didn't realise it was a child until it was "too late")

It's something that really disturbed me, but i'm at a loss at what could have been done to prevent it.

The only thing I can think of, is I should have been more aware of my surroundings; the kid shouldn't have snuck up on me. It was in a very crowded store, but I think I should have still done better.

I can totally see why TXI is such a stickler for retention straps.

Ugh.

jbirds1210 · Post by **jbirds1210** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:19 pm

nitrogen wrote: BAsically, slam your hand down on the grabbers hand and your weapon, and then push the grabber or their arm away.

I think weapon retention drills are an excellent idea....I have had some pretty good instruction. It just happened to be the only good firearm instruction that seven years of prison employment taught me!

If I get their arm....I now own it. A little pressure on that wrist and they will change their mind about wanting your weapon.

Tough luck on the kiddo...I agree with your methods of prevention. I honestly think that could happen to any of us. I am glad you found an understanding parent and the child was not injured.

txinvestigator · Post by **txinvestigator** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:52 pm

nitrogen wrote:About a year ago, I took some basic krav-maga classes while visiting my folks back in Phoenix from a friend of mine. One of the things he taught me was basic weapon retention. BAsically, slam your hand down on the grabbers hand and your weapon, and then push the grabber or their arm away.

Well, I'm at home depot and I feel a tug at my weapon. Instinctively, I slam my hand down on my weapon, and spin around to push the grabber out of my way.

Well, I executed a perfect retention drill.

..on a 5 year old boy. Since he was so short, I managed to slam him in the face instead of slamming his arm.

I was lucky, because his dad didn't instantly beat the tar out of me. he saw what happened. I was extremely lucky because the kid's dad was also a CHLer.
"I TOLD YOU *NEVER* TO GRAB A GUN, SON! YOU KNOW BETTER! WHAT WERE YOU THINKING??"

Honestly, I don't know what I could have done differently in this situation, but again, something to think about: curious small children that might be able to see things underneith your cover garments. There has to be a better way of handling a situation like that than exerting force against a small child. (Of course, I didn't realise it was a child until it was "too late")

It's something that really disturbed me, but i'm at a loss at what could have been done to prevent it.

The only thing I can think of, is I should have been more aware of my surroundings; the kid shouldn't have snuck up on me. It was in a very crowded store, but I think I should have still done better.

I can totally see why TXI is such a stickler for retention straps.

Ugh.

You did fine. Even with a strap, assertive action to prevent a take away is important. That said, an adult attempt to snatch it from the holster and the tug a 5 year old could manage are different, and with a retention device on the holster the light pull of a child could have allowed you to slam your hand down to secure, then evaluate before making the strike.

But again, under the conditions I don't think you should sweat it.

BTW, that dad should realize that generally, 5 year olds DON"T think.

age_ranger · Post by **age_ranger** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:14 pm

Retention straps are a great idea. Just ask the guy in the stall next to me who lost his taurus in the bowl..........never hear so much swearing in all my life. However, I did watch the door while he washed it off and headed home to lube her up.

Wildscar · Post by **Wildscar** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:37 pm

I wouldn't sweat it man. Had that been my son I would not have expected any less from you. If he had actually gotten it out of the holster the repercussions could have been real bad. Who do you think would have been the one to get in trouble with the law. Hopefully that event will stick in the child's head and he wont do it ever again. For somthing like that should have gotten him more than a time out in my opinion.

Firearms are not something to be taken lightly. I think everyone who's going to carry a firearm should not have to defend their defensive actions when they feel their weapon is being compromised. That goes for everyone from a LEO to a CHL holder to a person that just bought one and is transporting it to the house.

I say

to you for you quick actions. Keep it up.

glocklvr · Post by **glocklvr** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:50 am

I honestly can't say I would have reacted any differently in the same situation and it may have taught the kid a very important lesson. You have to protect your weapon at all cost and in a crowded store it is hard to keep track of everybody around you. I normaly keep my plastic in the front of my wallet so that if my cover gets blown I can do some explaining while showing my license and hopefully avoiding a scene. I would personaly avoid retention straps because if you need it in a hurry it will be 1 more thing to keep you from drawing quickly but you did very well from the way it sounds.

NcongruNt · Post by **NcongruNt** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:08 pm

This reminds me of a story a D.A.R.E. officer told me when I was in school. He was talking to some middle school students, and a curious girl thought it would be neat to touch his gun from behind. She got a swift and powerful elbow to the forehead from his reflex reaction.

Roger Howard · Post by **Roger Howard** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:44 pm

Retaining your firearm is #1 most important thing you can do. I guarantee your reaction will stick with him and he will think twice about ever reaching for someone's firearm again. IMHO you did the correct thing. What if it hadn't been a 5YO but a criminal wanting to use it on you.

casselthief · Post by **casselthief** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:40 pm

I think something to keep in mind here is that it was a 5yr old.
1. They're curious
2. They're resilient

meaning that they can get temselves into "trouble" and even hurt, but not usually hurt bad. case and point, the proverbial hot stove scenario.
and that's how kids learn. it's also the job of a child (cause, apparently I'm Dr Phil, now

) to push their boundraries.
that kid learned a great lesson, you obviously didn't hurt him (maybe startled, and if he cried, I'm sure it was more out of surprise and/or embarassment than actual pain), and the dad was completely understanding.
I would say we should all be greatful that the parent was not some antigun-nazi, cause that'd been a sticky one!!
as far as worrying about the kid getting the drop on you,

don't wurrah about it. you gotta consider, you were in a "safe" environment, with your mind occupied by the grand vast array of shiny things in front of you. I mean, we're not in the CIA, and shouldn't have to act like we're Jason Bourne 100% of the time just to qualify as situationally aware.

aaaaaaaaaand, I'm done.

seamusTX · Post by **seamusTX** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:25 pm

casselthief wrote:I would say we should all be greatful that the parent was [not] some antigun-nazi, cause that'd been a sticky one!!

It sure might have turned out different.

- Jim

DSARGE · Post by **DSARGE** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:03 pm

G.U.N.---Grab, Undo, Nuetralize

Great recognizing the threat and not escalating!

cyphur · Post by **cyphur** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:11 am

Don't feel bad!! You did the right thing. Instincts are everything - I've tossed a few friends of mine when they sneak up on me after Basic - they learned that flying can be painful. In your case, gun retention was the #1 priority.

It could be worse....

My mother works with a woman who's brother is a former Army Special Forces operator, spent a good bit of time behind the lines in the GWOT since the inception, came back a little tweaked. She(the sister) took him on a vacation to help him unwind. Well, then ended up camping in a favorite place of theirs in a wood cabin. Late one night she wakes up and walks very quietly to the kitchen, trying not to wake her brother. As she passes his room, the door flies open and he's mid-air and does a combat tackle/restrain, and she's face down on the floor completely neutralized. He had been sound asleep and heard someone approaching the door and instinctively reacted.

She was unharmed, but it illustrated that when instincts kick in, all bets are off.

TheRising · Post by **TheRising** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:00 am

age_ranger wrote:Retention straps are a great idea. Just ask the guy in the stall next to me who lost his taurus in the bowl..........never hear so much swearing in all my life. However, I did watch the door while he washed it off and headed home to lube her up.

Thats funny! If he would have had a Glock he coulda shot that bowl to water while it was still in there!!

As for the OP, I don't know what you could have done different.

I almost hit my Mom that way in a Home Depot. Me and my Dad were walking around after my Mom had went to get some light bulbs and she snuck up on me to give me a hug. However sweet it was, her right hand was the first to grab me and I had to restrain myself not to swing until I turned around. Good thin I didn't hit her, my hand would have fallen off.....those hunky women.

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Weapons retention: I was lucky, not for the reason you think

Weapons retention: I was lucky, not for the reason you think

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