My Government At Work

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chasfm11
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My Government At Work

Post by chasfm11 »

I've had to have two new roofs, thanks to hail storms, in the past 3 years. The one three years ago didn't require a permit. The one two weeks ago did - and a $150 charge for it.

There is now a requirement for the inspector to look at the installation in the following categories.

1. Did the contractor clean up around the house? To verify this, the inspector stood in front of my house and asked me if the crew had cleaned up.

2. Are the flues intact? The reason given for the inspection was that in some roofing situations, the flue pipes had been knocked loose. The danger of CO is very real when that happens. I get that.

We have a natural gas furnace and a natural gas water heater. The inspector went up the pull down stairway and could easily see the flue from the furnace. The water heater is near the garage and observing the pipes through the attic from it requires walking across the ceiling joists then crouching down and moving to the right about 15 feet. From there, the flue pipes are easily visible. I know. I did it while the roofing crew was here. I was the one that installed the flue so I know exactly where it is and how it is strapped.

The inspector is not permitted by the Town to walk on the ceiling joints. The best that he could do was to look at where the flue connects to the top of the water heater. Because of Town code, a metal ring surrounds the flue so it isn't possible to stand beside it and look up to verify the status of the flue. No attempt was made to look at the roof from the outside to check if the flue that extends beyond the roof line was in place and looked like it was coming out at a reasonable angle. A flue pipe that is bent off to the side is a sure sign that something isn't correct in flow.

So in my case, the $150 fee did not accomplish the purpose set forth by the Town. My water heater flue could be lying in the attic and my family and I could be at risk for CO poisoning and death.

I do understand that there are good roofers and bad roofers and that no every home owner is as familiar as I am with how stuff works and what makes it safe. But I find this situation all too typical. There is a hue and cry about a terrible safety exposure to the public. Plans are put into place and money spent (from tax payer dollars) and the original purpose isn't accomplished anyway.

An isolated case? Not really. I put up a 1,500 square foot shop two years ago. There were multiple "inspections" and I was present for every one. I was my own electrical contractor and hung the electric service from the meter base in. Other than a cursory look inside the building twice (both of those took less than 2 minutes), the only real inspection was the my GFCI would trip. Noone checked that the physical dimensions of the building met the approved diagram or that the building was assembled per the drawings. Two of my neighbors pulled permits for their similar sized buildings more than 5 years ago and never had final inspections. Because I have a separate electric service to that building, I had to have a final inspection before the Town would give permission the the electric company to set my meter.

I understand that, at some level, inspections should be done. I'm positive, however, that my Town's current level isn't close to a correct one. One of the inspectors told me that the Town's estimate is that they only are involved in about 30% of the work that they are supposed to inspect. All the rest is done without permits or anything. Most of the reason for that underground construction is that the Town has gained a reputation for being unreasonable to deal with. So for 3/4 of the homes and businesses where that work is being done, there is no "protection" of any kind. Miraculously, the buildings that aren't inspected aren't falling down or burning up.

Once again, it is the law abiding citizens who try to do the right thing that are punished. I just makes me wanna :banghead:
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The Marshal
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Re: My Government At Work

Post by The Marshal »

Oh I feel your pain!!!
I decided to replace my balcony on the rear of the house, with a new balcony, and extend the roof.
HOA signed off on plans, City was given plans and survery, and was paid $money$ for permit.
Tore down balcony, replaced concrete deck. City Inspector OK'd the new deck.
Looked at yard day before framers are to show up, and thought to MYSELF that something seems wrong.
Called out a NEW survey team, and sure enough, the Property Build Line runs trought a small corner of my decking.
RIGHT WHERE THE NEW POST IS GOING.
City Inspector says "Oooh. You are going to have to go before the Board for approval!"
That would be in 3-4 WEEKS before they meet. Oh, and it is $175 to do it.
WELL, today was the day. Found out that the Board FAILED to mail the letters to my neighbors (for their opinion of the 'variance') and said it will have to be in AUGUST before they can meet again.
In the meantime:
* Have $1000's of dollars of lumber laying in my yard for over a Month
* Have dangerous situation where anyone walking out of upstairs doors (2) will fall from 2nd floor
* Have a rented Dumpster and Porta-potty that if picked up, will cost me more $$ to have redelivered. And they have daily fees.
* Did I mention the City requires me to rent the dumpster from the only approved company, the one that charges the most to deliver and only company with daily fees?
* Or did I fail to mention that I am putting the deck back in *same spot* it occupied for last -17- years?

The valid question is: Had I said -nothing-, would I be enjoying my new balcony today?
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RPBrown
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Re: My Government At Work

Post by RPBrown »

Having to pull mechanical (HVAC) permits and have inspections done daily I see a lot of this. I have had an inspector red tag us for a 2" long seam of a duct that was not sealed but give a final when gas, electrical, and drains were not connected (general contractor called inspections). Not only giving us a final but plumbing and electrical as well just because he didnt want to climb up on the roof.
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chasfm11
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Re: My Government At Work

Post by chasfm11 »

RPBrown wrote:Having to pull mechanical (HVAC) permits and have inspections done daily I see a lot of this. I have had an inspector red tag us for a 2" long seam of a duct that was not sealed but give a final when gas, electrical, and drains were not connected (general contractor called inspections). Not only giving us a final but plumbing and electrical as well just because he didnt want to climb up on the roof.
That is even worst than I thought. It is almost whimsical when it comes to what gets approved and what doesn't The real problem is that there is no check and balance. In fact, that is the problem with most governmental functions. The good people of your town are much safer when plumbing systems that aren't even connected are approved. NOT!

I know it can be worse. We lived in Glenside, PA for a time and the brother of the head of the plumbing union was the head of the plumbing inspections for that town. There was no way that any non-union plumber was ever going to get any work approved and everyone in the town knew it. The head of plumbing inspections paid a "bounty" to the trash firm to identify houses which had plumbing trash set out. Put an old toilet or water heater on the curb and you were going to get a visit from the building inspector. My buddy and I changed out a gas fired gravity fed furnace for a more modern powered circulation type in the older house that I owned there. I had to take the old gravity fed boiler apart and haul it, section by section, to the salvage yard. I learned to hide all of the smaller parts (say a toilet valve) with the regular garbage.

I know that our current Town doesn't pay the inspectors very well and there is a very high turnover rate. Most of them are still studying to be able pass whatever exams are required to be able to inspect a full spectrum of building areas. I'm sure all of those things are contributing factors about why there is a rampant lack of consistency and even reasonability.
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puma guy
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Re: My Government At Work

Post by puma guy »

I had a city inspector tell me I was in violation after a water heater was installed because it wasn't elevated. I asked him why there was an elevation requirement and he said because gasoline fumes can travel to the pilot/burner and cause fires and explosions. (I already knew the answer) I then pointed out to him that my water heater is inside my house in the utilty room and if he hadn't noticed I have a detached garage. He then said "well natural gas fumes can cause explosions in the house as well" and the water heater could leak gas. The dryer is four feet away and the ignitor is about three inches above grade. Can't win!

My next door neighbor was a plumber and quit out of frustration with inpsectors and having to "donate" to the cause to get passed. He services oil wells now.
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LikesShinyThings
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Re: My Government At Work

Post by LikesShinyThings »

When husband and I lived in California, we decided to replace our standard water heater with a tankless water heater. Of course, there was a permit for the project (this was part of replumbing the entire house). Time for the final inspection. Inspector arrives, looks over most of the house. Then he says, "Ok, I need to see your water heater". We take him to the spot and point to it and he says, "Ok, but I also need to see the tank." We told him there was no tank, it was tankless, on-demand. He still insisted on seeing the tank. Another round and we finally convinced him there was no tank, and he was looking at the entire heater right there, mounted on the wall. Then he says "I've never seen one of those before. I need to borrow the manual. I'll be back tomorrow to finish the inspection." He took the manual back to the office with him to read it and figure out what to inspect. We passed, but my reaction to the whole experience: :banghead:
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: My Government At Work

Post by The Annoyed Man »

I know one of the local inspectors through a local charitable organization I belonged to. He was bragging to me one day how he had recently bought a older fixer upper home in Grapevine, and immediately cited a couple of his neighbors—who had lived there for many many years—because the back yard fences which were on their property were a couple of inches too high or too low of what the code called for. Two inches. Really? Another couple who own an home in my neighborhood have been building a very large "dream house" up by the lake. This inspector has been a thorn in their side every step of the way. My friend ended up acting as his own general contractor. He's the kind of guy who becomes an expert at whatever he tackles (he's a dentist by day). He told me about all the ways that he had to show this inspector where he was wrong on the code. The reason he acted as his own general contractor was that the first general contractor he spoke to about building his new home was eager to take the job until he learned it was in Grapevine. He told my friend that he won't even take new building jobs in Grapevine anymore because of this inspector. Plus, this inspector is cozy with certain members of the city council (also members of the same charitable fraternal organization), and they're used to siccing him on their political rivals.

I like living in Grapevine, as far as towns go. But whenever I buy some land and build my own place, it will be a daggum long ways from here.
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jocat54
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Re: My Government At Work

Post by jocat54 »

Long time ago I replaced my existing outside AC unit.....I guess the company I bought the unit from had to tell the city (Corpus Christi) because about 3 weeks after I had replaced it a city inspector knocked on my door saying I would have to pay a fine for not having a permit... I politely told him it wasn't going to happen
(I replaced an existing one not put in a new install) he then saw a ceiling fan box that was setting by the door and told me I would have to get a permit to put that up. Again politely told him no. They just want money. He did make me replace the existing outside AC disconnect with a new one. Should have told him no on that too.
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chasfm11
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Re: My Government At Work

Post by chasfm11 »

The Annoyed Man wrote:I know one of the local inspectors through a local charitable organization I belonged to. He was bragging to me one day how he had recently bought a older fixer upper home in Grapevine, and immediately cited a couple of his neighbors—who had lived there for many many years—because the back yard fences which were on their property were a couple of inches too high or too low of what the code called for. Two inches. Really? Another couple who own an home in my neighborhood have been building a very large "dream house" up by the lake. This inspector has been a thorn in their side every step of the way. My friend ended up acting as his own general contractor. He's the kind of guy who becomes an expert at whatever he tackles (he's a dentist by day). He told me about all the ways that he had to show this inspector where he was wrong on the code. The reason he acted as his own general contractor was that the first general contractor he spoke to about building his new home was eager to take the job until he learned it was in Grapevine. He told my friend that he won't even take new building jobs in Grapevine anymore because of this inspector. Plus, this inspector is cozy with certain members of the city council (also members of the same charitable fraternal organization), and they're used to siccing him on their political rivals.

I like living in Grapevine, as far as towns go. But whenever I buy some land and build my own place, it will be a daggum long ways from here.
Therein lies one of the biggest exposures that we have as citizens with the whole inspection process. My brother lives in a county in PA where it is almost impossible to get something passed if you don't make a "donation." So the whole idea of public safety is turned into payola.

We have many contractors who won't do business in our Town because of the inspectors. I've been told that the cost of work is driven up by the existence of the Town's inspection process. The contractors can never be sure what the inspector is going to make them do so they add a "fudge factor" into their bids to cover it. Of course, if nothing bad comes about during the inspection process, they simply pocket the extra. I sure wish that there were a way of communicating all of this to the average voter. Anyone who hasn't dealt with the building inspections department probably has no idea.
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Panzer Possum
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Re: My Government At Work

Post by Panzer Possum »

chasfm11 wrote:So in my case, the $150 fee did not accomplish the purpose set forth by the Town.
Yes it did. It transferred $150 from your pockets to the town's pockets.
chasfm11
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Re: My Government At Work

Post by chasfm11 »

Panzer Possum wrote:
chasfm11 wrote:So in my case, the $150 fee did not accomplish the purpose set forth by the Town.
Yes it did. It transferred $150 from your pockets to the town's pockets.
No. That was the actual purpose which in many governmental situations is never even acknowledged by the responsible group. I promise you that if they said in public that their purpose was to levy a $150 tax on every construction site including roof replacements, they would have been flooded by irate citizens. No, they shroud their intent in "the public welfare." The purpose that they did set forth was protecting me from danger. They didn't. Unfortunately, too many of my neighbors don't see it for what it is. Unless your roof is being replaced and you personally witness the token inspection process, you really don't understand the deception.
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puma guy
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Re: My Government At Work

Post by puma guy »

I my fair city you're supposed to get a permit to trim any speciman tree. I had to replace the service loop and box on a rent house. I learned the quickest way to do it was make a personal call to the head of our electic permit dept to get the work done. Did that and a city electrician came and looked at the job that morning. He came the next afternoon (after work to be fair) and completed the job. I paid the $750 with a check made out the the depy head. Next day an inspector shows up to inform me my staff is not high enough. It was the more than high enough where it exited the roof, but wasn't 36 inches higher than the eave. (It was only about two inches short so he let it pass) Since there were redundant grounds he said they had to have separate ground rods. They couldn't be terminated to the same rod even though they came off the same ground bus bar in the new breaker box. "rlol" The electrician came out the next day and took care of it. He simply removed the duplicate ground. He gave me the wire and lug and said just reconnect it after the inspector left and then he'd call the power company to re-energize.
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chasfm11
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Re: My Government At Work

Post by chasfm11 »

puma guy wrote:I my fair city you're supposed to get a permit to trim any speciman tree. I had to replace the service loop and box on a rent house. I learned the quickest way to do it was make a personal call to the head of our electic permit dept to get the work done. Did that and a city electrician came and looked at the job that morning. He came the next afternoon (after work to be fair) and completed the job. I paid the $750 with a check made out the the depy head. Next day an inspector shows up to inform me my staff is not high enough. It was the more than high enough where it exited the roof, but wasn't 36 inches higher than the eave. (It was only about two inches short so he let it pass) Since there were redundant grounds he said they had to have separate ground rods. They couldn't be terminated to the same rod even though they came off the same ground bus bar in the new breaker box. "rlol" The electrician came out the next day and took care of it. He simply removed the duplicate ground. He gave me the wire and lug and said just reconnect it after the inspector left and then he'd call the power company to re-energize.
Boy does your situation ring a bell with me. I wanted to do the right thing and install a transfer switch to let me run some of my house circuits from my generator in case of a storm. I had an electrician give me a bid on the work - $6,000. It turns out that the whole house has to be brought up the current standards if you touch any electrical part. I had both a powered smoke detector and one hooked to my alarm system but the new spec is that EVERY bedroom (whether you are using it as one or not) has to have its own powered smoke detector with battery backup and there has to be one in every hall, too. They have to be tied together so that if anyone of them goes off, they all go off. It makes a lot of sense in a big house. In our tiny house, I can touch all three bedrooms by just extending my arms. The electrician wanted $250 each to install them. I put them all in myself for $100. So I now have 4 smoke detectors less than 10 feet. Yep, makes a lot of sense to me.

I'm not sure about your ground rod situation. They told me I'm going to have to change mine. I have a single rod. Nope, not good enough. I have to have 3 and they have to be all tied together. It is going to be a real bugger because there is concrete wrapped around the house near the electric service entrance. I'm having an electrician buddy and his wife over for dinner so he can explain exactly what I have to do. I sure doesn't sound pretty. They approved a single rod and a "ufer" on my shop but that may have been under the older code.

My transfer switch and the work to install it was less than a third of the original bid. I still don't have it done because of all of this hold up and I'm probably going to kick myself if we do have a long electrical outage. I have a couple of really long, heavy duty (#12) extension cords but they would be a pain to move around. The transfer switch would make things so much easier. Nope, not allowed to have one. :banghead: But there are a lot of people out there backfeeding generators into their house wiring - which is really dangerous for power company workers. You would think that they would want to make installing transfer switches, which is a much safer solution, as easy as possible.
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