Houston Police Officer Shoots Double Amputee

[WildBill]

I heard about this on the radio a couple of days ago. The FBI has been called in to investigate.

http://www.caller.com/news/2012/sep/27/ ... ental-ill/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tacticool]

The dude was crazy enough to amputate his own limbs. It's not hard to imagine he was crazy enough to do worse to the cop.

[mamabearCali]

Sure he was crazy, but I have to highly doubt that a guy with one arm, one leg and a writing pen is a credible threat. My Baloney meter is going off like crazy.

[anygunanywhere]

Sure he was crazy, but I have to highly doubt that a guy with one arm, one leg and a writing pen is a credible threat. My Baloney meter is going off like crazy.

It does not matter if you are a crazy double amputee or not, assaulting a police officer by attempting to stab him with an unknown object will get you shot almost every time.

Anygunanywhere

[Kawabuggy]

The person being interviewed in the article stated "he was one of God's children". If that really is the case, then they did him a favor and he is where he belongs now. Alas, I don't think God is going to provide him a non-stop supply of cigarettes & soda as they also indicated he is a chain smoker, and DEMANDED that they keep him supplied with cigs & soda. Who exactly was paying for his "treatment"? No court case now as he took the "express" elevator to his final destination. After the investigation clears the shooting officer of all wrong-doing, will there really be any losers in this case? Adios amputeed amigo!

[mamabearCali]

Sure he was crazy, but I have to highly doubt that a guy with one arm, one leg and a writing pen is a credible threat. My Baloney meter is going off like crazy.

It does not matter if you are a crazy double amputee or not, assaulting a police officer by attempting to stab him with an unknown object will get you shot almost every time.

Anygunanywhere

With a pen....really.... How does a man with one arm and one leg in a wheel chair get close enough to stab a person with a pen. In order for a threat to be credible the person has to be able to act on it. If a 5 year old tells me he is going to kill me with his crayon is he a lethal threat (obviously not). I expect police officers, heck I expect a ten year old, to be able to move out of the way, or deploy less than lethal means, and not shoot a man who is obviously insane and little to no threat. Apparently the FBI does too.

[anygunanywhere]

Sure he was crazy, but I have to highly doubt that a guy with one arm, one leg and a writing pen is a credible threat. My Baloney meter is going off like crazy.

It does not matter if you are a crazy double amputee or not, assaulting a police officer by attempting to stab him with an unknown object will get you shot almost every time.

Anygunanywhere

With a pen....really.... How does a man with one arm and one leg in a wheel chair get close enough to stab a person with a pen. In order for a threat to be credible the person has to be able to act on it. If a 5 year old tells me he is going to kill me with his crayon is he a lethal threat (obviously not). I expect police officers, heck I expect a ten year old, to be able to move out of the way, or deploy less than lethal means, and not shoot a man who is obviously insane and little to no threat. Apparently the FBI does too.

Little or no threat? To whom?

I do not know all of the facts because I was not there. From what I have read the officers did not know what the looney toon was trying to stab with....was it a syringe full of tainted blood, or what? It was only after the incident that they realized what it was.

Just because a person is a double amputee does not mean they are not a threat. Just because someone is in a wheelchair does not mean they are not a threat. My deceased brother-in-law was confined to a wheel chair. Even in his wheel chair days he would have been a considerable threat to deal with.

Even children can be deadly given the right circumstances.

I am not about to pummel a LEO on a forum for defending his partner against a perceived threat, and I stand by my statement that crazy or not, assault anyone especially an LEO and you should receive the consequences of your actions regardless of your abilities, abnormalities, or impairments.

Anygunanywhere

[mamabearCali]

I would bet if a citizen with two arms, and two legs shot a mentally handicapped man with one arm and one leg for threatening them with a pen, the DA would be asking them a few questions. "How did you come to be in a such a badly lit room with a person of unstable mental capacity that you could not tell the difference between a pen and something else." How did you allow a person who is obviously insane yet with considerable physical disabilites to get so close to you? Why did you deploy lethal force when you had non-lethal force at your disposal?

I have relatives in wheel chairs too....they don't move so fast that one could not step to the side, especially only being operated by one arm. Perhaps your relatives are more burly than mine.

Perhaps the officers have quite reasonable answers to these questions. In general I expect officers to use discretion, and try to avoid lethal force if possible. At minimum I would expect an officer of the law to excercise the same judgement that I would be expected to exercise.

Now perhaps they did, perhaps he kicked out his wheel chair and came at them fast with an object and they had no time to react or move. Perhaps they are perfectly justified in what they did. What I am saying is anytime two able bodied people go into a room with a man with one arm and one leg and then the handicapped man is the one who is shot and the two able-bodied people claim self defense eyebrows should go up and investigations should be done.

[VMI77]

I would bet if a citizen with two arms, and two legs shot a mentally handicapped man with one arm and one leg for threatening them with a pen, the DA would be asking them a few questions. "How did you come to be in a such a badly lit room with a person of unstable mental capacity that you could not tell the difference between a pen and something else." How did you allow a person who is obviously insane yet with considerable physical disabilites to get so close to you? Why did you deploy lethal force when you had non-lethal force at your disposal?

I have relatives in wheel chairs too....they don't move so fast that one could not step to the side, especially only being operated by one arm. Perhaps your relatives are more burly than mine.

Perhaps the officers have quite reasonable answers to these questions. In general I expect officers to use discretion, and try to avoid lethal force if possible. At minimum I would expect an officer of the law to excercise the same judgement that I would be expected to exercise.

Now perhaps they did, perhaps he kicked out his wheel chair and came at them fast with an object and they had no time to react or move. Perhaps they are perfectly justified in what they did. What I am saying is anytime two able bodied people go into a room with a man with one arm and one leg and then the handicapped man is the one who is shot and the two able-bodied people claim self defense eyebrows should go up and investigations should be done.

Exactly.

[anygunanywhere]

What I am saying is anytime two able bodied people go into a room with a man with one arm and one leg and then the handicapped man is the one who is shot and the two able-bodied people claim self defense eyebrows should go up and investigations should be done.

Let's see....the FBI is looking into it. The DA is undoubtedly looking into it.

Justice will prevail although the result might not satisfy everyone.

Maybe one day LEOs will have a much easier time evaluating all of the situations they encounter on a daily basis. Lighting and other surroundings will be sufficiently suitable for them to see what is going on. All of the crazies will be adequately medicated. Unicorns will dance across the sky. Mermaids will swim the seas. Pixie dust will solve everything.

Anygunanywhere

[mamabearCali]

Let's see....the FBI is looking into it. The DA is undoubtedly looking into it.

Justice will prevail although the result might not satisfy everyone.

If it is actually being looked into and not being swept under the rug I am satisfied.

Maybe one day LEOs will have a much easier time evaluating all of the situations they encounter on a daily basis. Lighting and other surroundings will be sufficiently suitable for them to see what is going on. All of the crazies will be adequately medicated. Unicorns will dance across the sky. Mermaids will swim the seas. Pixie dust will solve everything.

Anygunanywhere

Certainly this is not a perfect world. But as responsible people, we are required to mitigate risks to ourselves and others. Being in a poorly lit room with a mentally unstable person seems to me to be a risk that can be addressed. Allowing a mentally unstable person to get close to you seems to be a risk that can be addressed. Just because we live in a fallen world does not mean we throw caution to the wind and say "oh well." It means more caution and discretion is needful.

[anygunanywhere]

Certainly this is not a perfect world. But as responsible people, we are required to mitigate risks to ourselves and others. Being in a poorly lit room with a mentally unstable person seems to me to be a risk that can be addressed. Allowing a mentally unstable person to get close to you seems to be a risk that can be addressed. Just because we live in a fallen world does not mean we throw caution to the wind and say "oh well." It means more caution and discretion is needful.

You seem to know much about addressing risks in encounters which others experience on a daily basis. Please tell us how this can be done so that everyone, especially LEO, can learn from your wealth of situational awareness.

Anygunanywhere

[mamabearCali]

Certainly this is not a perfect world. But as responsible people, we are required to mitigate risks to ourselves and others. Being in a poorly lit room with a mentally unstable person seems to me to be a risk that can be addressed. Allowing a mentally unstable person to get close to you seems to be a risk that can be addressed. Just because we live in a fallen world does not mean we throw caution to the wind and say "oh well." It means more caution and discretion is needful.

You seem to know much about addressing risks in encounters which others experience on a daily basis. Please tell us how this can be done so that everyone, especially LEO, can learn from your wealth of situational awareness.

Anygunanywhere

In this situation when talking with an unstable man in a dimly lit room caution would demand a few things. Turn on the lights, perhaps ask for another lamp if the room is still dark and you are uncomfortable with the lighting level. If a mentally unstable person is being shifty and or agitated and is in a wheel chair and there is not a reason to take them into custody leave the room or step back. Have help on hand so that you don't have to use lethal force if he goes crazy (as unstable people sometimes do). Practice deescalation techniques, if possible. Use your head in general. Do what I as a civilian would be expected to do. This is not too hard.

edited to add: perhaps you don't mean to be so, but your responses have been quite patronizing and border on rude. I have tried to be very civil to you, even answering questions you seemed to mean to insult me by. Whenever police officers use force on a disabled person I would think that they would be trained to expect criticism and scrutiny.

[Jim Beaux]

Let's see....the FBI is looking into it. The DA is undoubtedly looking into it.

Justice will prevail although the result might not satisfy everyone.

If it is actually being looked into and not being swept under the rug I am satisfied.

Maybe one day LEOs will have a much easier time evaluating all of the situations they encounter on a daily basis. Lighting and other surroundings will be sufficiently suitable for them to see what is going on. All of the crazies will be adequately medicated. Unicorns will dance across the sky. Mermaids will swim the seas. Pixie dust will solve everything.

Anygunanywhere

Certainly this is not a perfect world. But as responsible people, we are required to mitigate risks to ourselves and others. Being in a poorly lit room with a mentally unstable person seems to me to be a risk that can be addressed. Allowing a mentally unstable person to get close to you seems to be a risk that can be addressed. Just because we live in a fallen world does not mean we throw caution to the wind and say "oh well." It means more caution and discretion is needful.

Im quite certain that the cops would do everything in their power to mitigate being vomited on, or having their sense of smell assaulted by 2 week old corpses, or avoid the emotional trauma of picking up a dying 3 year old after an atrocity. Regretfully their job often calls upon them to "rassle" the pig.

I am curious, just where was this guy's limbs amputated at....the wrist, the ankle, the forearm? I think totally trusting the media to form a conclusion is just...well let's just say it aint the best idea I have ever heard.... (let's do away with the justice system and rely on the National Enquirer ).

Dont discount the fact that we have the luxury of looking at this shooting in the calm confines of a chair drinking coffee. The cops have to make life altering decisions under extreme conditions. They are human and make bad calls daily like we all do. If the cops did wrong they should burn, but at least allow their judgement the benefit of the facts.

I think shooting someone who is attacking with a weapon is justified.... and it only takes one hand to hold a weapon.

[mamabearCali]

Im quite certain that the cops would do everything in their power to mitigate being vomited on, or having their sense of smell assaulted by 2 week old corpses, or avoid the emotional trauma of picking up a dying 3 year old after an atrocity. Regretfully their job often calls upon them to "rassle" the pig.

Ummmm....I have been thrown up on many times as a teacher and a mom. Cornoners have to deal with week old corpses too. They chose their job....just as I and the coroner chose ours. Yucky icky nasty stuff is the part of many jobs.

I am curious, just where was this guy's limbs amputated at....the wrist, the ankle, the forearm? I think totally trusting the media to form a conclusion is just...well let's just say it aint the best idea I have ever heard.... (let's do away with the justice system and rely on the National Enquirer ).

That is true...knowing where his limbs were amputated makes a huge difference on his movement capabilities. Right now I am working with the same lack of info as everyone else. Perhaps the light of information will shed some insight.

Dont discount the fact that we have the luxury of looking at this shooting in the calm confines of a chair drinking coffee. The cops have to make life altering decisions under extreme conditions. They are human and make bad calls daily like we all do. If the cops did wrong they should burn, but at least allow their judgement the benefit of the facts.

I don't discount that at all...which is why I said above that it is entirely possible that they have the answers to the questions. Perhaps they were surprised and had no choice but to shoot. But very well armed able bodied men walked in a room with a disabled man with two limbs. When the two abled bodied men with thier full mental capacities claim self defense when they shoot the one armed one legged man I think some serious questions need to be asked. Of both their judgement and their use of force. I don't think it is wrong or rude to ask those questions.

I think shooting someone who is attacking with a weapon is justified.... and it only takes one hand to hold a weapon.

A four year old can hold a pen...does the four year old have the capablilty to seriously injure me...no. This man could hold a pen, granted. Now could he hold the pen push his chair across the room jump up on one leg and stab an officer before pepper spray could be deployed......I find that somewhat doubtful. Possible, perhaps, but certainly worthy of some hard questions.