Accidental gun exposure due to sweat at youth football game

[Happily Ever After]

NordicTexas said it was "Elementary school age, not school sponsored" so I don't think it's NCAA.

[barstoolguru]

NordicTexas said it was "Elementary school age, not school sponsored" so I don't think it's NCAA.

that at one of the games (at a local Jr High) this past month,

school (federal) property

[Happily Ever After]

You lost me. Where did you get that the federal government owns the property? Is it at a COE lake?

[Teamless]

would in fact be sponsored parley by the school,

n this case the fields are rented by the football teams for use, therefore, the fields are no different than if i rented a field for a few friends to play ball.

[Teamless]

school (federal) property

by that simple analogy, a CHL'er could not carry in a school parking lot either.

[barstoolguru]

school (federal) property

by that simple analogy, a CHL'er could not carry in a school parking lot either.

What I should have said federally regulated and by state statute allows a licensed person to carry on the property (just as Cal overrode the fed law and sells marijuana even though it's against the federal law) correct me if I am wrong but if you carry a gun in a school you would be charged under federal law.

This is just a thought but if you "rent" a field for usage, the rules/laws of the field don’t change. They are conveyed to the user for that night or duration

[Teamless]

This is just a thought but if you "rent" a field for usage, the rules/laws of the field don’t change.

At the same time, that should also mean if you rent a government facility you should have to follow those rules also, correct?
What comes to mind then is Gun Shows who post 30.06 and have police there enforcing the law.

As far as a Federal arrest, no idea, but I would guess it would be the local LEO's that would arrest you.

[barstoolguru]

There would be a difference between a long term rental and usage rental.
say if you rent a room at a hotel you don't hang pictures but you would in an apartment rental

[RoyGBiv]

Being on school property would in fact be sponsored parley by the school, I would think it has to be for them to use school property legally

There would have to be a written agreement and under state law for a contract to be legal and binding money has to change hands thus making a legit school sanction function

I don't agree with that, but, what do I know.
Loaning, leasing, etc your patch of grass is not in the same ballpark as "sponsoring" the event.

In my OPINION.

[Teamless]

There would be a difference between a long term rental and usage rental.
say if you rent a room at a hotel you don't hang pictures but you would in an apartment rental

Renting is renting, I don't see a distinction.
As far as a rental house or apartment, if you put wholes in the wall, you are responsible to fix them.

But as all things when there is no legal precedent or fully clear definition, we all have our opinions and I am not here to change yours, only to express mine.

[tbrown]

School grounds are not off limits to LEO or CHL except under very specific circumstances.

[C-dub]

School grounds are not off limits to LEO or CHL except under very specific circumstances.

And I don't think the circumstances the OP describes meets the condition of being a school sponsored activity.

[srothstein]

this is the definition right out of the code:

Penal Code 46.035 WEAPONS (f)(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

unless TPC specifically authorizes it.

My reason for taking this view is that the law begins with the premise that carrying a concealed handgun is against the law, because that was the state of the law before CHL was passed. Then it sets about in TPC 46 defining A) a thing called CHL; B) a set of parameters where a CHL may NOT carry his/her gun [examples: house of worship or school]; and C) a further subset where those prohibitions are not applicable [examples: house of worship if not posted 30.06; parking lot of school]. So the logical assumption is that A) if the place at which you desire to carry is listed among places you many not carry (i.e. school); and B) and the subset of places at that location where the prohibition is suspended (i.e. parking lots and walkways) does not include the specific place you want to carry at (middle school on-campus football field); then C) you may not carry there.

TAM, I think you went wrong in your logic in a couple small spots. My biggest disagreement is the part in italics. Our legal philosophy is based on the concept that anything not forbidden is permitted, not the opposite. So, if it is not specifically included, it is permitted.

More important, I think you are generally right in your application of the way this law is written. You are allowed to carry unless it is in a forbidden place, such as a school premises. But we have a definition of school premises. This is where you went wrong in your basic philosophy. If it is not included in the definition, it is allowed. The list of allowed places is just a sample list and is not exclusive. The list of forbidden places is exclusive. So, if the field is not included in the forbidden places list, it is allowed.

And from the snippet of law I left, we see that only buildings are forbidden. That brings us to what is a building? The Code Construction Act (Government Code Chapter 311) tells us that a word takes its normal definition unless it has taken on a specific technical meaning by the law. So, the common meaning of a building is a structure with four walls and a roof. Most of us would include a lean-to with three walls and a roof, some of us would include a major stadium without a roof, and there might be a few other things included. In general, no one would take a football field (the field itself) as a building or portion of one. I cannot think of anyone who would take bleachers on a field as part of a building. And, as was shown in another post, building is defined in the Penal Code in a few places. The one shown from chapter 30 widens it a little, because it would include a tent, which most of us would not consider a building. But I have not seen one yet that would include the open field with the bleachers on it. Even fenced in, I don't see it as being possible. I have seen a few high school stadiums which rival colleges and might be considered a building (brick or cement supports and internal stairs, multi-level set of bleachers, etc.

My opinion, which is worth what you pay for it, is that there is no way it is illegal to carry at a junior high football field, if it is just a field with bleachers. High school stadiums might be a different kettle of fish, and colleges are definitely likely to change things. And obviously, anything that is sponsored by a school makes it illegal.

[Jumping Frog]

What I should have said federally regulated and by state statute allows a licensed person to carry on the property (just as Cal overrode the fed law and sells marijuana even though it's against the federal law) correct me if I am wrong but if you carry a gun in a school you would be charged under federal law.

Well, since you requested it, this is the second time you made that incorrect statement.

You ARE WRONG since we are discussing Texas CHL holders. Non-licensees can't carry there anyway, so the discussion must be limited to licensees. Texas CHL holders are allowed under federal law to possess a firearm anywhere they want -- including buildings -- in any Texas school.

Per 20 U.S.C. § 922(q)(2)(b)(ii)

B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
...(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

[barstoolguru]

Darn; I was hoping it was federal incase I get busted tennis and volleyball on government money at club fed sounds better then state jail