Combat Rescue

[G26ster]

Watched a show on Nat Geo channel called "Combat Rescue." I hope someone familiar with current day operations can answer some questions I have. First, what is the difference between Army Combat Rescue helicopters (with medics aboard), and Medivac helicopters (Dustoff)? Reason I asked, is because the Combat Rescue aircraft were armed, while Medivac aircraft are not (Geneva Convention). In my day we provided gunship support to medivac aircraft because they were unarmed, and had the big Red Cross on the nose. I still see those today, but the Combat Rescue aircraft did not have the red cross. Forgive me for being confused, but I'd just like to know the difference, as the Combat Rescue approach makes a whole lot more sense. I flew the baddest attack helicopter of the day, and could defend myself and others quite well, but I had the most respect for the Dustoff pilots of any group of pilots. So, if anyone can straighten this old man out, please chime in.

[Dragonfighter]

I believe it's field treatment/extraction vs. ambulance. Hot zone, pararescue type insertions is what I gathered anyway.

[Jaguar]

I cannot answer your question, but just wanted to thank you for your service.

My dad was Cobra pilot in Vietnam in '68, he passed away in '09, my brother got the Zippo inscribed "Cobras are for kicks".

[jimlongley]

I believe the difference is due to the habit of the enemy forgetting to notice the large red crosses on the medevac helos, so why not remove the crosses, which some seemed to use as aiming points, and go in hot?

[Kythas]

Watched a show on Nat Geo channel called "Combat Rescue." I hope someone familiar with current day operations can answer some questions I have. First, what is the difference between Army Combat Rescue helicopters (with medics aboard), and Medivac helicopters (Dustoff)? Reason I asked, is because the Combat Rescue aircraft were armed, while Medivac aircraft are not (Geneva Convention). In my day we provided gunship support to medivac aircraft because they were unarmed, and had the big Red Cross on the nose. I still see those today, but the Combat Rescue aircraft did not have the red cross. Forgive me for being confused, but I'd just like to know the difference, as the Combat Rescue approach makes a whole lot more sense. I flew the baddest attack helicopter of the day, and could defend myself and others quite well, but I had the most respect for the Dustoff pilots of any group of pilots. So, if anyone can straighten this old man out, please chime in.

The US Army is the only military branch in Afghanistan today flying medevac choppers with the red cross. The Geneva Convention does NOT require medical evacuation vehicles to display the red cross - what the Geneva Convention states is that any vehicle which does display the red cross shall be unarmed. It may also not fly over enemy territory or enemy positions without prior authorization of the enemy.

The Taliban actually use the presence of the red cross on Army medevac choppers as propaganda tools in Afghanistan, telling the people they are Crusader crosses. They routinely fire at these birds as they know they are unarmed.

As these aircraft are unarmed, they must always have an armed support helicopter, usually an Apache, escort them to the evac site. In several instances, a lack of available escort helicopters has prevented Army medevac choppers from lifting off, causing the soldier to die. There is a campaign underway to remove the red cross from Army medevac helicopters and arm them, as the USAF, USMC, British, Polish, Dutch (the Dutch have removed the red crosses from their evac choppers for this reason), and every other Coalition nation has done. The Army brass is not wanting to do this for political reasons, mainly that with the red cross, the chopper falls under the command of the medical corps, and without the cross, they are afraid the choppers would be re-designated as general purpose helicopters.

The Combat Rescue series depicts US Air Force para-rescue operators. These guys are the special forces of the USAF. They are known as PJs, for Pararescue-Jump Qualified, and fall under the JSOC command authority. Their call sign is Pedro, so they are also referred to as Pedros. They are on par with the Navy SEALs, Army Special Forces, Army Rangers, and Marine Force Recon. In fact, the USAF Pararescue school is probably the toughest special operations school in the US military - it's two years long. Imagine if SEAL training were two years, and that's what you'd have here.

These guys go to US Army Special Forces weapons schools, US Navy dive school, US Army jump school, and receive enough medical training to work as Physician Assistants in the civilian world. They will jump into a remote location where a chopper can't land and hump it 20 clicks to get to a wounded soldier, if needed - then they will hump it out, while carrying him the whole way, until they can exfil.

In one instance I am aware of, a SEAL team was high on a mountaintop in Afghanistan in a firefight with the enemy. The PJ dustoff bird could barely land due to the thin air, and could not lift off with the additional weight of the two wounded SEALs they were there to evac. So two of the PJs on board gave up their seats so these SEALs could get to the hospital, and they stayed with the SEALs fighting alongside them until the team could extract two days later.

The motto of this unit is "That others may live". These guys embody that motto daily.

As to your question, there isn't much difference between medevac and dustoff. The two terms are basically used interchangeably.

Here's a dispatch from Michael Yon regarding these Airmen, for whom I have the highest respect: http://www.michaelyon-online.com/pedros.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's another of his dispatches documenting the death of US Army Specialist Chazray Clark due to an Army medevac being unable to lift off due to unavailability of any escort helicopter: http://www.michaelyon-online.com/red-ai ... ailure.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[G26ster]

I believe it's field treatment/extraction vs. ambulance. Hot zone, pararescue type insertions is what I gathered anyway.

That sounds reasonable and dang good idea. Thanks

Jaguar: Sending a PM

[G26ster]

Watched a show on Nat Geo channel called "Combat Rescue." I hope someone familiar with current day operations can answer some questions I have. First, what is the difference between Army Combat Rescue helicopters (with medics aboard), and Medivac helicopters (Dustoff)? Reason I asked, is because the Combat Rescue aircraft were armed, while Medivac aircraft are not (Geneva Convention). In my day we provided gunship support to medivac aircraft because they were unarmed, and had the big Red Cross on the nose. I still see those today, but the Combat Rescue aircraft did not have the red cross. Forgive me for being confused, but I'd just like to know the difference, as the Combat Rescue approach makes a whole lot more sense. I flew the baddest attack helicopter of the day, and could defend myself and others quite well, but I had the most respect for the Dustoff pilots of any group of pilots. So, if anyone can straighten this old man out, please chime in.

The US Army is the only military branch in Afghanistan today flying medevac choppers with the red cross. The Geneva Convention does NOT require medical evacuation vehicles to display the red cross - what the Geneva Convention states is that any vehicle which does display the red cross shall be unarmed. It may also not fly over enemy territory or enemy positions without prior authorization of the enemy.

The Taliban actually use the presence of the red cross on Army medevac choppers as propaganda tools in Afghanistan, telling the people they are Crusader crosses. They routinely fire at these birds as they know they are unarmed.

As these aircraft are unarmed, they must always have an armed support helicopter, usually an Apache, escort them to the evac site. In several instances, a lack of available escort helicopters has prevented Army medevac choppers from lifting off, causing the soldier to die. There is a campaign underway to remove the red cross from Army medevac helicopters and arm them, as the USAF, USMC, British, Polish, Dutch (the Dutch have removed the red crosses from their evac choppers for this reason), and every other Coalition nation has done. The Army brass is not wanting to do this for political reasons, mainly that with the red cross, the chopper falls under the command of the medical corps, and without the cross, they are afraid the choppers would be re-designated as general purpose helicopters.

The Combat Rescue series depicts US Air Force para-rescue operators. These guys are the special forces of the USAF. They are known as PJs, for Pararescue-Jump Qualified, and fall under the JSOC command authority. Their call sign is Pedro, so they are also referred to as Pedros. They are on par with the Navy SEALs, Army Special Forces, Army Rangers, and Marine Force Recon. In fact, the USAF Pararescue school is probably the toughest special operations school in the US military - it's two years long. Imagine if SEAL training were two years, and that's what you'd have here.

These guys go to US Army Special Forces weapons schools, US Navy dive school, US Army jump school, and receive enough medical training to work as Physician Assistants in the civilian world. They will jump into a remote location where a chopper can't land and hump it 20 clicks to get to a wounded soldier, if needed - then they will hump it out, while carrying him the whole way, until they can exfil.

In one instance I am aware of, a SEAL team was high on a mountaintop in Afghanistan in a firefight with the enemy. The PJ dustoff bird could barely land due to the thin air, and could not lift off with the additional weight of the two wounded SEALs they were there to evac. So two of the PJs on board gave up their seats so these SEALs could get to the hospital, and they stayed with the SEALs fighting alongside them until the team could extract two days later.

The motto of this unit is "That others may live". These guys embody that motto daily.

As to your question, there isn't much difference between medevac and dustoff. The two terms are basically used interchangeably.

Here's a dispatch from Michael Yon regarding these Airmen, for whom I have the highest respect: http://www.michaelyon-online.com/pedros.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's another of his dispatches documenting the death of US Army Specialist Chazray Clark due to an Army medevac being unable to lift off due to unavailability of any escort helicopter: http://www.michaelyon-online.com/red-ai ... ailure.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

WOW! Thanks for the info. I was aware of the Medivac = Dustoff, but all the rest is news to me. In one scene, I saw the red cross marked dustoff birds, but no markings on the Combat rescue aircraft which caused my question.

[Texas Dan Mosby]

MEDEVAC birds are usually flown by dedicated MEDEVAC aviation units. That's all they fly, and they have an area of operations that they answer to, regardless of the unit calling. They are like an ambulance staged at a hospital, and respond to all calls in their area.

Army CSAR birds are simply birds DESIGNATED as the CSAR bird for a given mission, and usually designated from the same pool of birds used to fly the assault force. The flight crews are simply flight crews responsible for working the bird and the guns, and that's it. The unit conducting the mission is responsible for manning the CSAR bird with a medical team and / or a security and recovery team. Typical Army organizations using this approach will grab a PJ from the Air Force to head up the medical team, sometimes an air force JTAC (controls AF fixed wing birds...with big honkin' bombs on em') and the rest will be assaulters from the organization who provide security and help work extraction equipment.

I believe the Air Force and Navy are the only ones that have dedicated SAR/CSAR units due to the need to recover pilots fairly consistently.

At times, we have used AF birds, but we typically use Army aviation, and we had dedicated teams within our organization who received specific kit and training to perform the CSAR mission. We used this approach because more often than not, if we didn't bring it (CSAR) it wouldn't, or couldn't, be brought due to the locations we worked in.

Make sense?

[G26ster]

MEDEVAC birds are usually flown by dedicated MEDEVAC aviation units. That's all they fly, and they have an area of operations that they answer to, regardless of the unit calling. They are like an ambulance staged at a hospital, and respond to all calls in their area.

Army CSAR birds are simply birds DESIGNATED as the CSAR bird for a given mission, and usually designated from the same pool of birds used to fly the assault force. The flight crews are simply flight crews responsible for working the bird and the guns, and that's it. The unit conducting the mission is responsible for manning the CSAR bird with a medical team and / or a security and recovery team. Typical Army organizations using this approach will grab a PJ from the Air Force to head up the medical team, sometimes an air force JTAC (controls AF fixed wing birds...with big honkin' bombs on em') and the rest will be assaulters from the organization who provide security and help work extraction equipment.

I believe the Air Force and Navy are the only ones that have dedicated SAR/CSAR units due to the need to recover pilots fairly consistently.

At times, we have used AF birds, but we typically use Army aviation, and we had dedicated teams within our organization who received specific kit and training to perform the CSAR mission. We used this approach because more often than not, if we didn't bring it (CSAR) it wouldn't, or couldn't, be brought due to the locations we worked in.

Make sense?

I think so. Search & Rescue in the AF is/was a dedicated unit task, but in my day in the Army SAR was performed by any unit that could launch birds into an area to perform that task, as it was not a unit organized mission. Medivac/Dustioff was an organized unit, but performed no SAR mission. As I had not heard of Combat Rescue before, and missed the beginning of the program, I erroneously ass-u-me'd that these were Army mediivac/dustoff birds (as they had medics aboard) who were unmarked but "armed." Then later on the show I saw the marked birds on the ramp. Knowing that Army medivac/dustoff birds are/were not armed, I wondered who the Combat Rescue birds belonged too, and how they're mission differed from medivac/dustoff. Remember, my experience goes back over 40 years, and I'm not up to speed on modern unit configurations/missions. I think I have a clear picture now, so thanks to all.