Austin PD's questionable ticket. Can I beat it?

[surprise_i'm_armed]

On 2/19/13 I was on my way to the 27th Annual Cowboy Poetry Festival in Alpine, Texas.
The first night we stayed in Austin.

Austin driving is kind of a "chutes and ladders" kind of urban driving, and I'm an out-of-towner, so I'm not totally
familiar with all the local streets.

I was exiting from southbound I-35, right hand ramp, onto RM2222/Koening Lane.
At the Yield sign at the end of the ramp, I looked for traffic, it was clear, and I entered 2222.
Just as I passed the point of no return I noticed that it was a "STOP", rather than a Yield sign. As Rick Perry famously said...OOPS.

Well, an Austin PD marked police cruiser was sitting in the darkened parking lot nearby, lit me up by the Wendy's at Airport Blvd,
and issued me a ticket for running the stop sign. So much for the CHL being a "warning only" good luck charm.

It's a $167 fine and I could take Defensive Driving for less, but the ticket, as written, is questionable.

Here's why: The box "Viol. Time AM PM" was left blank.
The box "Condtions. Day light. Dark. Dry. Wet" was also left blank.

The time of the violation was approximately 1030 PM.

The online data in the court system says that the time of the violation was "1200 AM".

There's at least one lawyer on the board. There are multiple LEO's on the board. Please give
your assessment of my ticket's ability to stand up in court.

Is this ticket beatable due to the absence of the above data on the ticket, and the "1200 AM" in
the court's computer system?

If I gamble some gas money on going back to Austin (about 220 miles from my home), what's the
chance of the issuing LEO actually showing up?

If he does show up, can I just state my concerns to the judge?

If she says it's a good ticket, can I still opt for Defensive Driving?

This is only my 2nd ticket in 13.5 years.

Thank you for any input on this. I got the ticket on 2/19/13, and my court date is 3/19/13.

SIA

[Keith B]

Did you run the Stop sign? If yes, then pay the ticket and don't try to get out of it on a technicality. While I don't like forking out money either, if you violated the law and got caught, then you owe the fine and do the defensive driving.

[Chris]

If questioned in a trial, as long as the officer can provide an approximate time, it won't matter if he wrote it down or not. He should have, and it's bad form not to, but it isn't super important if he can testify to the approximate time. If that's your only bet with this thing, then how much is your time worth?

[texanjoker]

It is a valid ticket and you will not beat it for those reasons. If I recall correctly, the City of Austin Muni court will charge you money to take the ticket to trial. If you want to try and dispute the ticket by mail, request a trial by declaration. The court issued the 12 am time as the box was blank. APD will have video and possibly a CAD entry of the stop so they can verify the time if needed.

Did he disarm you?

[CainA]

First choice, take DD if they'll bless that over the phone and dismiss your ticket after successful completion. Second choice, pay the fine and be done with it. It's not worth my time or $$ for gas or whatever to roll the dice. I'd rather take my chances at the craps table.

[Jaguar]

Before I got my CHL a few years back I was going to pick up my kid from the High School late in the evening, he was doing some extracurricular activities. The road I was on is the same road I drive every day of the week, often multiple times, so I know this road very well. I pass a DPS trooper on the side of the road in the 55 zone and look down to see I am going two or three MPH over the limit, no big deal. I slow down as the speed drops to 50 then 40 a little further down the road. About the time I get to the turn in for the school, he lights me up, so I pull into the DPS parking lot on the corner.

The trooper gets out and walks up, I hand him my DL and insurance, and he asks if I knew why he pulled me over. I say, “nope” and he tells me he clocked me doing 58 in a 45. I’m sure the confusion was visible on my face so he repeats himself, "58 in a 45", and heads back to his car to run my information.

As I am sitting there I can’t believe my luck; a ticket I can actually get out of! I know this road like the back of my hand as I drive it nearly every day and have for the past twenty years; it drops from 60 to 55, then from 55 to 50, and then from 50 to 40. Nowhere on this road is there a 45 MPH zone. I may have passed the officer in the 55 zone but I never once said how fast I thought I was going, and I believe I can contest this ticket. I’m sure a judge would agree that since the trooper didn’t even know what the speed limit was on the road, he cannot properly enforce the speed limit.

So finally the trooper comes back to my window and tells me, “I’m only going to give you a warning.” Oh well, saves me some time. I accept this but never got anything in writing so I guess I’ve been “warned”. After he hands my license and insurance back and says drive safe I ask one more time, “How fast was I going?” He repeats, “I clocked you going 58 in a 45 MPH zone.” Not wanting to extend the conversation and call him out on there not being a 45 zone on the road since I am only getting a warning anyway, I say okay, have a good night, and leave.

I didn’t have anything to fight but I often wonder how difficult it would have been to get this ticket dismissed.

[pbwalker]

My $0.02...

Find a traffic lawyer, and pay him the make the ticket go away. I got a *very* questionable ticket once that I knew I stood a good chance of beating, but just opted to pay a lawyer the cost of the fine, and he makes it go away. Nothing on record, no wasted day on defensive driving, and you can go about your business. It sucks, but it's life.

[anygunanywhere]

I have a traffic attorney that has gotten me, my wife, and son out of tickets. Even if it costs me the same as the ticket I always pay the attorney.

Mine and my son's were City of Houston and we got deferred adjutication.

My wife's was DPS in Galveston county and he got the charges dismissed.

We never had to go to court.

I am a firm believer in good traffic ticket attorneys. Traffic enforcement is seldom about safety. It is almost always for revenue generation.

Anygunanywhere

[gregthehand]

You can ask for deferred adjudication on your own. Just FYI.

I've seen judges just correct the ticket before. I doubt any of that will matter. So not to pile on, but I believe you should just pay the ticket or take DD.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

[quote="texanjoker"]It is a valid ticket and you will not beat it for those reasons. If I recall correctly, the City of Austin Muni court will charge you money to take the ticket to trial. If you want to try and dispute the ticket by mail, request a trial by declaration. The court issued the 12 am time as the box was blank. APD will have video and possibly a CAD entry of the stop so they can verify the time if needed.

Did he disarm you?quote]

No. He followed me for a long time before he lit me up. I had time to get the envelope containing my insurance
card out of the glove compartment and I had it sitting on the middle of my dash. Usually I have my revolver in my
seatbelt holster, but had left it in the hotel room since I was only going out on a short errand.

My XDS was in my OWB at 4 o'clock. My SR9c was in a pocket holster, used IWB, at 11 o'clock.
I already had my interior lights on and my hands on the steering wheel.

APD: I'd like to see you license and insurance.
SIA: Here's my insurance card. I'm a CHL and I'm carrying 2. How would you like me to proceed?
APD: Where are they - in your waistband? Where's your wallet?
SIA: One's on my hip, the other is in my waistband. My wallet's in this left hand pocket.
APD: You can get your license out of your wallet.
SIA: I then handed him both my DL and CHL.

Almost right away a backup APD officer arrived on the scene. He stood beside my right front door window
while the original LEO wrote the ticket.

I believe that due to my interior containing 3 hi-viz lime green safety vests, the original LEO asked me
"Are you with any agency?"
I said "No, I'm a civilian."

**************************************************************************************************************************************

Thanks to everyone for their input on my situation. Here's my conclusions:

1. Hoping the LEO doesn't show up, yielding an immediate dismissal, seems like a crapshoot.
2. Showing up in court and bringing up the "no time" data ont the ticket also seems to have a small success chance
given that the LEO may bring his dashcam DVD with the time/date stamps.
3. I like the idea of paying a traffic ticket lawyer to make this go away, but with my luck I'd get some flake
who wouldn't file the correct motions. Then well after the fact I'd get arrested for non-payment of the fine.
4. I believe that the safest, most cost-effective method for me to handle this is to simply take Defensive
Driving. I have taken it before, and it usually ends up costing somewhat less than the ticket, in this case $167.

SIA

[texanjoker]

It is a valid ticket and you will not beat it for those reasons. If I recall correctly, the City of Austin Muni court will charge you money to take the ticket to trial. If you want to try and dispute the ticket by mail, request a trial by declaration. The court issued the 12 am time as the box was blank. APD will have video and possibly a CAD entry of the stop so they can verify the time if needed.

Did he disarm you?quote]

No. He followed me for a long time before he lit me up. I had time to get the envelope containing my insurance
card out of the glove compartment and I had it sitting on the middle of my dash. Usually I have my revolver in my
seatbelt holster, but had left it in the hotel room since I was only going out on a short errand.

My XDS was in my OWB at 4 o'clock. My SR9c was in a pocket holster, used IWB, at 11 o'clock.
I already had my interior lights on and my hands on the steering wheel.

APD: I'd like to see you license and insurance.
SIA: Here's my insurance card. I'm a CHL and I'm carrying 2. How would you like me to proceed?
APD: Where are they - in your waistband? Where's your wallet?
SIA: One's on my hip, the other is in my waistband. My wallet's in this left hand pocket.
APD: You can get your license out of your wallet.
SIA: I then handed him both my DL and CHL.

Almost right away a backup APD officer arrived on the scene. He stood beside my right front door window
while the original LEO wrote the ticket.

I believe that due to my interior containing 3 hi-viz lime green safety vests, the original LEO asked me
"Are you with any agency?"
I said "No, I'm a civilian."

**************************************************************************************************************************************

Thanks to everyone for their input on my situation. Here's my conclusions:

1. Hoping the LEO doesn't show up, yielding an immediate dismissal, seems like a crapshoot.
2. Showing up in court and bringing up the "no time" data ont the ticket also seems to have a small success chance
given that the LEO may bring his dashcam DVD with the time/date stamps.
3. I like the idea of paying a traffic ticket lawyer to make this go away, but with my luck I'd get some flake
who wouldn't file the correct motions. Then well after the fact I'd get arrested for non-payment of the fine.
4. I believe that the safest, most cost-effective method for me to handle this is to simply take Defensive
Driving. I have taken it before, and it usually ends up costing somewhat less than the ticket, in this case $167.

SIA

Sounds like a good contact on APD's part . It is normal for APD to have a 2nd officer on ALL traffic stops so the CHL had nothing to do with that. There is no rule you have to stop the car immediately upon seeing a violation. I can say I don't stop people right away for various reasons to include finding a safe spot for the stop, a stop location that I know my cover will find easier, to observe driving behavior, being able to get on the radio and put out the stop prior to making it, ect. ect. That is just good officer safety on their part. Aside from you getting a ticket for running a stop sign, sounds like they did a good job.