nightmare69 wrote:If I was caught then I would argue that I came in through Sears and there was no sign saying I could not carry. If you don't post up the legal sign at all entrances then how is future CHL holders supposed to know that they cannot carry? Im going to ask a few of my LEO friends today and see what they would do if called to the mall cause of armed CHL holder who went through a non posted public entrance.
You're going to find a lot of "gray" areas in the CHL world. Are the letters really 1" tall? Is it visible enough? It's only in English. The cops in XYZ jurisdiction don't like CHL holders so they'll give them a hard time. The cops in XYZ jurisdiction aren't intimately familiar with CHL law.
If you keep it well concealed, follow the rules as best you can, and stay respectful and polite with officers, chances are you will never have an issue. IMO
Opinions are my own, commonly worthless, and should not be relied upon. I am not a lawyer.
LTC Holder
Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.
The law does not specify that it has to be on every entrance, just that it has to be conspicuously posted.
Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.
The law does not specify that it has to be on every entrance, just that it has to be conspicuously posted.
But if the facility has 6 entrances and only one is posted, have they really "displayed [the sign] in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public"? IMHO, no. But, IANAL, IDNSAAHIELN , YMMV.
Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.
The law does not specify that it has to be on every entrance, just that it has to be conspicuously posted.
And it also does not say they must be at all or any likely entrances. It doesn't even have to be at an entrance. I don't think they even thought about a place like a mall or hospital or any other place with multiple entrances when they first wrote that. They certainly weren't thinking about hospitals in this regard because they were originally off limits anyway. However, malls have been around long before CHL here and nothing has been done to clarify this hole. Postings by cities on city property haven't been dealt with yet, but I hope it will this year.
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016. NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider
Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.
The law does not specify that it has to be on every entrance, just that it has to be conspicuously posted.
If its not at the public entrance where I enter then its not conspicuously posted IMO. When I go to the mall 99% of the time I enter through Sears witch is at the end of the mall. The nearest posted entrance is about 100yrds away, no way could I see the sign from Sears parking lot.
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Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.
The law does not specify that it has to be on every entrance, just that it has to be conspicuously posted.
If its not at the public entrance where I enter then its not conspicuously posted IMO. When I go to the mall 99% of the time I enter through Sears witch is at the end of the mall. The nearest posted entrance is about 100yrds away, no way could I see the sign from Sears parking lot.
I don't think you're going to find many people here that will disagree with you. The problem is that the law doesn't specify what "displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public" means and there is no case law on the subject. So we are each left to make up our own minds and risk possibly getting caught. For myself, I take that risk. I have gone into buildings, searching the entrance for signs, and never seen one. Then, on another day, I enter the same building from a different entrance and, lo and behold, there's a 30.06. I won't ever carry there again as I've now been made aware. But what if I had gotten caught the first time(s) when I didn't know the place was posted?
This is one area that definitely needs clarification by our congress critters.
nightmare69 wrote:
If its not at the public entrance where I enter then its not conspicuously posted IMO. When I go to the mall 99% of the time I enter through Sears witch is at the end of the mall. The nearest posted entrance is about 100yrds away, no way could I see the sign from Sears parking lot.
I don't think you're going to find many people here that will disagree with you. The problem is that the law doesn't specify what "displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public" means and there is no case law on the subject. So we are each left to make up our own minds and risk possibly getting caught. For myself, I take that risk. I have gone into buildings, searching the entrance for signs, and never seen one. Then, on another day, I enter the same building from a different entrance and, lo and behold, there's a 30.06. I won't ever carry there again as I've now been made aware. But what if I had gotten caught the first time(s) when I didn't know the place was posted?
This is one area that definitely needs clarification by our congress critters.
Exactly. That's the problem. Who wants to be the test case?
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016. NRA Patriot-Endowment Lifetime Member---------------------------------------------Si vis pacem, para bellum.................................................Patriot Guard Rider
nightmare69 wrote:
If its not at the public entrance where I enter then its not conspicuously posted IMO. When I go to the mall 99% of the time I enter through Sears witch is at the end of the mall. The nearest posted entrance is about 100yrds away, no way could I see the sign from Sears parking lot.
I don't think you're going to find many people here that will disagree with you. The problem is that the law doesn't specify what "displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public" means and there is no case law on the subject. So we are each left to make up our own minds and risk possibly getting caught. For myself, I take that risk. I have gone into buildings, searching the entrance for signs, and never seen one. Then, on another day, I enter the same building from a different entrance and, lo and behold, there's a 30.06. I won't ever carry there again as I've now been made aware. But what if I had gotten caught the first time(s) when I didn't know the place was posted?
This is one area that definitely needs clarification by our congress critters.
Exactly. That's the problem. Who wants to be the test case?
Well, I don't want to, and I'll do everything I can not to be (within reason), but I'm darn sure not going to run and hide. I keep my eyes peeled, comply when I have notification (assuming I can't avoid the business), and just try not to poke the bear. One of these days, if my luck runs out, I might find myself in that position. Then it'll be up to my attorney to fight my way out of it.
If you look at 411.204(b) it says a sign at each door although this is not a 30.06 sign. A 30.06 sign needs to be posted on the property but not at each door. This to me is confusing. 411.204 with a sign at each entrance would ban "handgun" on the hospital premises. 30.06 seems to relate to concealed handgun. So at a hospital I guess a single 30.06 sign at the entrance is enough but if 411.204b is followed a 51 type sign ( without the 51) has to be at each door. I wish I could say that I understand all of this.
rotor wrote:If you look at 411.204(b) it says a sign at each door although this is not a 30.06 sign. A 30.06 sign needs to be posted on the property but not at each door. This to me is confusing. 411.204 with a sign at each entrance would ban "handgun" on the hospital premises. 30.06 seems to relate to concealed handgun. So at a hospital I guess a single 30.06 sign at the entrance is enough but if 411.204b is followed a 51 type sign ( without the 51) has to be at each door. I wish I could say that I understand all of this.
A single 30.06 sign only works if you are aware of the sign. If the sign is posted at the South entrance and the only entrance you have ever used is the North entrance then you have not received notice via the 30.06 sign.
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rotor wrote:If you look at 411.204(b) it says a sign at each door although this is not a 30.06 sign. A 30.06 sign needs to be posted on the property but not at each door. This to me is confusing. 411.204 with a sign at each entrance would ban "handgun" on the hospital premises. 30.06 seems to relate to concealed handgun. So at a hospital I guess a single 30.06 sign at the entrance is enough but if 411.204b is followed a 51 type sign ( without the 51) has to be at each door. I wish I could say that I understand all of this.
A single 30.06 sign only works if you are aware of the sign. If the sign is posted at the South entrance and the only entrance you have ever used is the North entrance then you have not received notice via the 30.06 sign.
I had that exact situation. There is a Baylor hospital in Irving, off I-635 where I have to visit an oral surgeon's office. The South entrance is to an office building that is connected by a corridor to the main hospital building. There is no sign of any kind regarding guns on the South entrance. You can come and go to the offices without ever finding out that there is a valid 30.06 sign on the East entrance, the one used by ambulance arrivals. There is also a LEO at a desk right inside that entrance
Because the facility is run by Baylor and all of their other buildings are posted, I went looking. I'd prefer to make a conscious decision about whether to argue that the office building is not covered by the sign in the hospital versus being surprised that the hospital even had a sign. It would be easy (and probably expensive) to argue that notice was not given if you are an outpatient. It is easier to follow the "concealed is concealed" route if that is the direction that you choose. Now that I know about the hospital sign, my gun stays in the car. Fortunately, I have no regular appointments at that facility.
Edit: word correction
Last edited by chasfm11 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
I just wish that the law was more clear. If one section says a sign must be at each entrance and another section does not contain that language we all have the possibility of violation of 30.06 and the discretion of the legal system to either penalize us or drop it. I think that for a large facility it would be next to impossible to check every entrance for a 30.06 sign but the courts always have the option of saying that because you didn't check all entrances you are guilty. So, it would seem to me that we need to get the wording changed to something similar to 411.204 b which specifically says "shall prominently display at each entrance to the hospital or nursing home".......
Anyone have any idea of what one should do to try to clarify this? Contact our legislator? Who would be the best person in Texas legislator to contact to get a wording change to make it "at each entrance"? If I had a name I would contact that legislator for help.
rotor wrote:I just wish that the law was more clear. If one section says a sign must be at each entrance and another section does not contain that language we all have the possibility of violation of 30.06 and the discretion of the legal system to either penalize us or drop it. I think that for a large facility it would be next to impossible to check every entrance for a 30.06 sign but the courts always have the option of saying that because you didn't check all entrances you are guilty. So, it would seem to me that we need to get the wording changed to something similar to 411.204 b which specifically says "shall prominently display at each entrance to the hospital or nursing home".......
Anyone have any idea of what one should do to try to clarify this? Contact our legislator? Who would be the best person in Texas legislator to contact to get a wording change to make it "at each entrance"? If I had a name I would contact that legislator for help.
Perhaps there is some consolation in the fact that 411.204b was obsoleted in 1997, though not removed from the code. So therefore it is irrelevant to the enforcement of 30.06, which is the criminal offense.
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I think many people forget that malls are very unique situations. Many malls have entrances to the mall and separate entrances to some of the stores. You may or may not be able to enter the mall from inside one of the stores that has an entrance.
But a store is not under the control of the mall. It is rented or owned by the store (some of the anchor store actually build their own buildings and just lease the land). The mall might require a leasee to post, but it cannot legally post for them. So a mall may post at all of its entrances from outside and still cannot post the store entrances. Now, to do it properly, each store should be posted at the entrance to the mall from inside the store, but the mall may not have the legal access to the store to do the posting.
But the law is clear that you cannot carry if you have received notice. And it is clear that notice just has to be on the property and conspicuous to the public. If you know the sign is there because you have seen it on any one visit, you do not get around the law by going in an unposted door. If you have never actually seen the sign, you have not received notice yet, even if we tell you that it is there (we do not have the apparent authority to act for the owners).
But I strongly recommend that you not carry if it is well known here that it is posted. You will probably win in court, but it can be a pyrrhic victory (as in very expensive).
