Marketplace Fairness Act

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OldCannon
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Marketplace Fairness Act

Post by OldCannon »

(Brace yourselves, I went crazy with the writing and thinking and stuff :lol: )

So, in the last couple of days, I've been bombarded with exhortations from places like The Heritage Foundation and Campaign for Liberty, telling me to oppose the coming-up-for-vote "Marketplace Fairness Act of 2013." (MFA)

Let me start by offering some links:
Official text of text of the bill: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr684/text" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Heritage's opposition piece: http://blog.heritage.org/2013/04/22/mor ... oney-grab/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
C4L's opposition piece: http://www.campaignforliberty.org/natio ... x-mandate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Conservative Action Alerts opposition piece: http://www.campaignforliberty.org/natio ... x-mandate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A collection of mostly positive comments about the MFA here: http://blog.fedtax.net/tag/marketplace-fairness-act/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For the record: Both our Texas senators opposed even the cloture vote, so you can be pretty certain that's how they will vote when the bill comes to the floor. However, the support level broadly spans both parties by a non-trivial margin (75-24). What puzzled me so much about this is why, when I'm told this bill would suddenly "create an internet tax", there were so many supporters of it.

I'll let each of you read the links above and come to your own decisions. But there seems to be some relative positives for local businesses and states, but I'm bothered by a couple of places where the MFA supporters seem to gloss over things. I'll get to that in a sec.

Some Self-Evident Internet Facts for me:
1) The internet is an awesome place where I can find items that local retailers can't or won't carry.
2) The internet is an awesome place where merchants can offer me "economy-of-scale" prices that even makes Costco look overpriced.
3) Not only can I take advantage of the price reductions cited above, I am also not charged sales tax, which means, even if a local store offers the same item at the same price, I can get it on the internet for (technically) 8% less. Most times I don't even have to pay for shipping, and even if I did, it's almost certainly less than the 8% I would pay locally.

Local merchants have always had a love/hate relationship with Internet merchants. They get frustrated when a consumer comes into the store, handles/manipulates a big ticket item, then leaves to order the same item online (this is called "showrooming" and often happens at places like Best Buy, Sears, etc.). Even with aggressive pricing, sales tax puts a damper on the ability to compete. I, personally, have been a "victim" of showrooming. With my tiny little workshop in the front of the house, I don't carry much inventory, and what I do carry must compete with a "fair market value" on the internet (meaning, honestly, about a 2-3% profit margin). This is a non-issue for small items that are under, say, $300. However, I have a gorgeous 4x32 ACOG that has seen more than its fair share of oogling, and it's priced at almost the exact same price as OpticsPlanet.com. Yet potential purchasers shy away from the extra $100+ they would have to pay for taxes (and OpticsPlanet ships for free). The interesting part is that folks who buy big-ticket out-of-state items (that shiny new Accuracy International AWM you got from Bud's Gun Shop, for instance) are required to pay Texas a "use tax," but Texas doesn't enforce that law (don't tell me you didn't know that already :rules: ). The use tax also applies if you buy an item in a "lower tax" area of Texas away from your residence (wait, you didn't know that either?! :lol: ).

Yet, to be fair, if this showrooming problem were always the case, ALL local businesses that compete with internet businesses would go out of business. Clearly, there's more to this story.

There's lots of reasons why stores of all sizes still exist in local markets. They offer competitive values in places that internet merchants can't, they offer "instant gratification" of purchases, they offer items that are impractical for internet commerce, but perhaps most importantly, they offer the ability to make the transaction more human. The face-to-face exchange of greetings, shared experiences, and knowledge that enrich all of us day-to-day. Even with something as mundane as getting fuel for our car.

So why is there uproar about the MFA? In a nutshell, the Marketplace Fairness Act aims to eliminate point #3. Effectively making most internet sales much like it is now with Amazon in Texas - you will be charged your local sales tax during the checkout process.

"Taxation without representation!" some say. But you would now be subject to the taxes you were always expected to pay in the process of local commerce (and _should_ be paying anyway). Taxes established by your _local_ government. More accurately, the MFA requires taxation WITH representation, since whatever taxes you would be required to pay are the result of state and local tax laws.

For the businesses themselves, it is very much true that they would be forced to cope with (potentially) a patchwork of tax laws, along with an infuriating number of tax returns, even though the law requires a "simplification" of interstate taxation. The good news, if you want to consider it this way, is that the threshold for businesses would be set to one million dollars of out-of-state sales before they would be required to act as if they were local sales entities. This gives a business more time to plan for such a mandate (if they're currently below the threshold) and to work with the right business to broker their tax transactions (there's already about 8 or so businesses that offer this kind of service).

What bothers me the most about the MFA is tax _enforcement_.

If I sell two million dollars of guitars to people in California (because, god forbid I should sell GUNS :mrgreen: ), how can that state enforce the collection of tax revenue if I choose to not pay? I am not a subject of California (not since I escaped at 18), nor do I intend to go back there. Does Texas law enforcement bear the burden of arresting me for California tax evasion? Can California tell the federal govt to seize my bank accounts until I settle with them? Does California send their own tax collectors to Texas to force me to pay? How does California block me from selling to their subjects in the future? Will they have a "banned business list" and arrest anybody in CA that purchases from me? Will they use some kind of law to block my internet site from California subjects? I think this is going to be extremely problematic and, most likely, unenforceable except with the most egregious violators.

For me personally, the MFA seems to offer a small benefit as a small business. For the state of Texas, it would likely offer a significant boost to tax revenue (and it's nothing to sneeze at if the state was willing to spend multiple millions of dollars in court to force Amazon to start collecting state taxes). For the consumer, it will definitely make places like Amazon seem like less of a bargain (to be fair though, I don't think my _personal_ purchasing patterns with Amazon have been affected by the inclusion of Texas sales taxes).

In the end, this kind of law is inevitable. Frankly, I'm surprised it hasn't happened already. What bothers me about this in some ways is why places like the Heritage Foundation, etc are fighting this. By forcing your _local_ taxes to be (painfully) visible, you should now be more engaged in the state and local politics that directly affect your tax rates. I imagine this will be a non-issue for folks in states that have no sales tax (Alaska, Montana, New Hampshire, Delaware, and Oregon, in case you were curious), but it''s more painful for everybody else.

This post isn't intended to change your position on the MFA, but I did want to write my thoughts about it. I keep in mind that MFA doesn't touch points #1 and #2 in the "Self-Evident Internet Facts." I think this also will continue to preserve the appeal and value of those businesses, while eliminating the artificial advantage that has always existed with fact #3.
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Jumping Frog
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Re: Marketplace Fairness Act

Post by Jumping Frog »

The heavy lumber is being swung by large businesses, with Walmart standing first in line.

I view it as yet another means of making it difficult for small business to compete. After all, software to accurately manage 4900 different tax jurisdictions plus the maintenance to keep it up to date is not something small businesses would normally choose to purchase.

Amazon is a proponent of this bill because they want to make money selling the tax software services to small Amazon-affiliated retailers. They want the traffic to funnel through their portal (even though Amazon's search capabilities stink).

This does nothing for the people in MA, for example, who drive across the state line to buy goods in NH from bricks/mortar retailers.

Personally, I am opposed because this will cause an increased portion of the GDP to flow into tax coffers, and we need government spending to be a smaller proportion of GDP, not larger.

It will also place US-based Internet retailers at a competitive disadvantage to foreign ones. After all, simply host the website off-shore and ship from Mexico.
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OldCannon
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Re: Marketplace Fairness Act

Post by OldCannon »

Jumping Frog wrote: I view it as yet another means of making it difficult for small business to compete. After all, software to accurately manage 4900 different tax jurisdictions plus the maintenance to keep it up to date is not something small businesses would normally choose to purchase.
I run a small biz and I think it makes it easier to compete. Remember that the threshold is $1mm of out-of-state sales. If I had that much, the incremental cost for a tax brokerage applied to my ecommerce system is relatively small. It would be absorbed into my overall operational costs. I'm sure, in addition, that the competition in the marketplace (given there are already about 8 brokerage services already) would be pretty reasonable, and that each one would offer services that scale with my revenue.
Amazon is a proponent of this bill because they want to make money selling the tax software services to small Amazon-affiliated retailers. They want the traffic to funnel through their portal (even though Amazon's search capabilities stink).
Ok, but they already have to do this in several states.

This does nothing for the people in MA, for example, who drive across the state line to buy goods in NH from bricks/mortar retailers.
That has always been a problem, long before there was teh intertubez :)

Personally, I am opposed because this will cause an increased portion of the GDP to flow into tax coffers, and we need government spending to be a smaller proportion of GDP, not larger.
A fair point, but we're talking local taxes. I, as a citizen, have a tighter leash on tax rates locally.
It will also place US-based Internet retailers at a competitive disadvantage to foreign ones. After all, simply host the website off-shore and ship from Mexico.
Maybe, but there's a reason (actually several) Amazon doesn't really do that now to avoid taxes. Biggest reason is infrastructure. When it comes to logistics, nobody in the world is more efficient than the US.

You've raised some interesting points, but I'm not really swayed. I really feel weird about this, too, because it seems like I'm arguing FOR increased taxes. :headscratch
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Re: Marketplace Fairness Act

Post by K.Mooneyham »

My concern is WHY is the current POTUS so whole-heartedly supporting this? There HAS to be something in it for him (them). And yes, I am that cynical about the whole thing. Just a product of the times...
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Re: Marketplace Fairness Act

Post by JSThane »

Three questions I ask for bills like this.

A) Does this constitute an effective tax increase, if it works as advertised?

B) Will this require a new governmental bureaucracy and accompanying regulations to be implemented?

C) What are the probable unintended consequences?


I think the answers are "Yes," "Yes," and "Legion."

Forcing the buyers to pay the sales tax of their home state would definitely be an effective tax increase; where they weren't paying a tax, now they are. It's an increase. One could argue whether or not they -should- be paying said tax, but that's a different point. So yes, it's a tax increase from the current status quo.

I cannot fathom how this would not require a new, massive, federal bureaucracy to implement. Not only will there need to be a large number of new bureaucrats ready at the phone to answer questions and sort out different state and local tax jurisdictions, but there will also need to be a new federal law enforcement agency to collect unpaid or delinquent state sales taxes. Wait, what? Yep, since California cannot legally send their own tax-collection SWAT team to Texas to pick up the tax tab from a buyer, nor can they force Texas to do the raid themselves, -someone- will have to have the authority. Bingo, we now have Marketplace Fairness Agents.

Unintended consequences... I'd say an entirely new badge design for another federal agency would be a big one. My own department-issued jack-boots have some severe limitations attached to them, which is a good thing. I -really- don't want to see some other agency with "interstate commerce enforcement" authority issued their own door-kickers. The potential for misuse, incompetence, and abuse is too big. Additionally, the new Marketplace Fairness Agency would have to have its own operating budget, initially taken as a portion of the taxes they collect "on behalf of the states," but probably quickly mutating into either its own sales tax or a new "fee" on your tax return. And the amount they "require" will never go down, only up. This doesn't include the somewhat murky, vague notion I have that states could wind up using this law and resulting new agency as a giant federal club against each other. A blue state could, conceivably, write a new sales tax law that, through various legal convolutions and stretching of definitions, only applies to the neighboring red state that's "stealing their jobs and taxes." Let's say, California tailors a new sales tax against Arizona. Hypothetical, of course. Arizona looks at the law, refuses to collect the tax, or even more likely, doesn't even -notice- the law or can't puzzle it out. California then sends MFA agents against the "delinquent tax-payer" in Arizona, and against the politicians/bureaucrats that didn't enforce their law. Law eventually gets tossed out, replaced with a new-same-as-the-old law, and lather, rinse, repeat. Far-fetched, maybe, but I could see this becoming federally-sanctioned inter-state harassment.

I can understand the reasoning behind this proposal. However, while I might be overly cynical or pessimistic, I can think of too many ways for this to go wrong to support it.
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Re: Marketplace Fairness Act

Post by The_Busy_Mom »

What's that old saying - ignorance of the law is no excuse...

I don't agree with the MFA, and as a small business owner, it would be of benefit to me. When we speed (break the law) we get caught. We are supposed to have the moral/legal character to stay within the speed limit. Just like we are supposed to have the moral/legal character to pay local tax directly to the state on items that we purchase on the internet - that is the current law. I look at it like, we have been speeding along on the internet, making our purchases, not paying our taxes, and now we (collective buyers) have been caught. So business is now going to get the short end of the stick and have to jump through hoops when it comes to collecting/reporting sales tax. Like TAM, my issue is with enforcement, and what bureaucratic department will (eventually) be formed to see enforcement of this Act.

IMHO, a flat consumption tax would eliminate nearly every entangled aspect of this Act - at the end of the month, I know how much in sales I did in Kommiefornia, multiply that by a flat consumption rate, and send it on to Kommiefornia. Doesn't solve the enforcement aspect, but I would suspect there is some governmental body charged with monitoring/enforcing interstate commerce fraud, under which I think sales tax fraud would probably fall. Some kind of joint task force, for lack of better knowledge.

But what do I know, I'm just a lowly small business owner, getting the raw end of the deal in almost every aspect of everything this current administration has brought to the table. :rules:

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Re: Marketplace Fairness Act

Post by SF18C »

Sounds like more Pol-cats trying to help...lighten your wallet!
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Re: Marketplace Fairness Act

Post by JSThane »

The_Busy_Mom wrote: Just like we are supposed to have the moral/legal character to pay local tax directly to the state on items that we purchase on the internet - that is the current law.

This is one of my quibbles, though; laws put into place that cannot be enforced absent some outsized, overreaching bureaucracy with simply amazing and intrusive enforcement powers. I agree that a flat sales tax nationwide would be easier to enforce than an MFA attempting to enforce the current patchwork of state and local sales taxes; however, the states and localities wouldn't give up their taxes so easily, which returns us to the basic point, that this is totally unenforceable without a huge new enforcement bureaucracy.

To me, this begs a question as to whether we should even try to apply sales tax laws to the internet. The cost, in time, money, and freedom, required to effectively enforce such a patchwork is, to my mind, far in excess of whatever gain or benefit would be accomplished by the collection of the currently unpaid revenue.

I don't see any other way to fix the issue of one state's residents refusing to pay sales tax to another state for their transactions via internet in that state, but I don't see any way the "fix" can help but break things even worse. I think this is one problem that should go unfixed, stay broken, because the repair bill is just simply too large and open-ended.
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Re: Marketplace Fairness Act

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The_Busy_Mom wrote:
IMHO, a flat consumption tax would eliminate nearly every entangled aspect of this Act - at the end of the month, I know how much in sales I did in Kommiefornia, multiply that by a flat consumption rate, and send it on to Kommiefornia. Doesn't solve the enforcement aspect, but I would suspect there is some governmental body charged with monitoring/enforcing interstate commerce fraud, under which I think sales tax fraud would probably fall. Some kind of joint task force, for lack of better knowledge.

But what do I know, I'm just a lowly small business owner, getting the raw end of the deal in almost every aspect of everything this current administration has brought to the table. :rules:

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All told, what you describe is not at all unlike the IFTA program for commercial transportation. It's one of those paperwork burdens that almost nobody outside the trucking business knows about. In short, as an owner-operator (trucker) I buy 100 gallons of diesel fuel in Oklahoma City, and drive to North Platte, NE. In so doing, I have operated in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska. I now owe fuel tax to all three states. Since I bought 100 gallons in Oklahoma, and paid fuel tax on the whole 100 gallons there, I am due a partial refund for the amount of fuel i *DIDN'T* use in Oklahoma, but owe to Kansas and Nebraska a portion of that refund for the fuel I *DID* use in those states.

And for those "nay-sayers" who suggest a whole new bureaucracy to enforce at the sate/federal levels, and a whole "niche market" of small businesses to support the cause, and the potential for severe consequences for a simple mistake to the little guy--the independent, trust me--history has proven them to be correct.

I'm not sure what the answer really is for such a thing, but if IFTA and apportioned commercial vehicle registration processes are any indication of "proper" implementations, I can't get on board with it.
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Re: Marketplace Fairness Act

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And let me just add that this so-called "internet" problem in sales & use tax is nothing new. It's been around since the dawn of the catalog sales business.
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Re: Marketplace Fairness Act

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JSThane wrote:I cannot fathom how this would not require a new, massive, federal bureaucracy to implement. Not only will there need to be a large number of new bureaucrats ready at the phone to answer questions and sort out different state and local tax jurisdictions, but there will also need to be a new federal law enforcement agency to collect unpaid or delinquent state sales taxes. Wait, what? Yep, since California cannot legally send their own tax-collection SWAT team to Texas to pick up the tax tab from a buyer, nor can they force Texas to do the raid themselves, -someone- will have to have the authority. Bingo, we now have Marketplace Fairness Agents.
Not picking nits with you, but the buyer will pay the tax no matter what. He or she can't complete the purchase without it. The sellers might be delinquent in paying the sales tax due to the state the buyer lives in, but that's a different problem. And you're absolutely right. Enforcement could only come from the federal level since no state could force a seller in a different state to pay up.

The only chance of this not stealing more freedom is if the states work out between themselves and agreement to enforce all out of state tax collections, and that's a legal nightmare waiting to happen.

Then there's the problem of overseas sellers who will never be burdened with tax collection (I'd LOVE to see the feds try to enforce THAT), so this will place US businesses at a competitive disadvantage. The obvious answer is one world government. Then all these questions are resolved.

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Re: Marketplace Fairness Act

Post by JSThane »

baldeagle wrote:
JSThane wrote:I cannot fathom how this would not require a new, massive, federal bureaucracy to implement. Not only will there need to be a large number of new bureaucrats ready at the phone to answer questions and sort out different state and local tax jurisdictions, but there will also need to be a new federal law enforcement agency to collect unpaid or delinquent state sales taxes. Wait, what? Yep, since California cannot legally send their own tax-collection SWAT team to Texas to pick up the tax tab from a buyer, nor can they force Texas to do the raid themselves, -someone- will have to have the authority. Bingo, we now have Marketplace Fairness Agents.
Not picking nits with you, but the buyer will pay the tax no matter what. He or she can't complete the purchase without it. The sellers might be delinquent in paying the sales tax due to the state the buyer lives in, but that's a different problem. And you're absolutely right. Enforcement could only come from the federal level since no state could force a seller in a different state to pay up.

The only chance of this not stealing more freedom is if the states work out between themselves and agreement to enforce all out of state tax collections, and that's a legal nightmare waiting to happen.

Then there's the problem of overseas sellers who will never be burdened with tax collection (I'd LOVE to see the feds try to enforce THAT), so this will place US businesses at a competitive disadvantage. The obvious answer is one world government. Then all these questions are resolved.

Welcome to your worst nightmare.
Bingo. There is simply no way to make this work efficiently, while respecting individual, state, or national rights. You took it one step further along the logical train than I had considered. Do we -really- want to give not only the federal government, but the UN (or some similar organization), this much more power?
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Re: Marketplace Fairness Act

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Texas law requires us to pay a "use tax" if sales tax is not collected by the retailer. This applies to traditional mail order, online sales, and operators are standing by infomercials.

1. If a state chooses not to have a use tax, it's not the Feds job to force them.
2. If a state has trouble getting its residents to pay state taxes, it's not the Feds job to interfere.
3. The Feds can't even balance their own budget.
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Re: Marketplace Fairness Act

Post by JALLEN »

Asking Congress to avoid taxes is like asking your crack-smoking neighbor to give up crack, or gin etc. They can't help themselves.

Moreover, they need the money because they are under unbelievable pressure to spend, by a bewildering array of forces. Everybody is lined up at the government trough, farmers, suppliers of goods and services that the government requires, the recipients of all the various programs to alleviate misery and despair, employees of government who have massive health and retirement benefits to cling to and more besides. Many of these have just and understandable claims on the public purse. A shameful amount is waste and fraud, of course.

State and local governments are beating the bushes looking for revenue sources. In some ways, they are even worse than the feds, out here anyway.

The Founders didn't have all of this, any of it really. In those days, you had to provide for yourself. The government didn't feel responsible to provide jobs, retirement, safety beyond repelling invaders, health care, subsidies, most roads, etc.
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Re: Marketplace Fairness Act

Post by sjfcontrol »

By the way, the "Taxation without representation" part is on the behalf of the merchant, not the customer. The customer is not paying a tax (to a government entity), he is paying a fee the merchant requires to complete the sale. The merchant is responsible for paying the tax to a government entity. If a merchant in, say California sells an item to a customer in Texas, it's the merchant that is responsible for paying the taxes, even though he has consumed NONE of the benefits of said tax, nor is he capable of voting or lobbying for representatives to represent his issues.

I believe I pay enough taxes, of all sorts. I don't see the advantage of paying more to fill the government coffers of other states.
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