o b juan wrote:Bald eagles quote from chapter 9:42 Texas Penal code..
(B)" the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury".
You are in trouble if a fleeing thief is shot
the operative words in this quote are "Would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury."
Remember that a colon or a semi-colon is at the end of each paragraph--
you do not have the complete law until you see a period ..
and anything above the last paragraph is (moot) is that the proper word.
Deadly force may only be used to stop unlawful deadly force.
Do not shoot a fleeing thief, burglar..
I know that some will disagree, but that's the way the law is written!!
You are forgetting the rest of that statute, explicitly §9.42(3)(A). If a thief is fleeing at nighttime with your property, recovering your property is a justification to use deadly force.
Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that: (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
EEllis wrote:Managers at 51% locations can legally carry so it's the owner that is the issue not the law. Carrying a club, extendable baton, is illegal so stop doing that.
there is a baton thread only a few clicks away, they can carry that baton. check out the thread I learned alot.
EEllis wrote:Managers at 51% locations can legally carry so it's the owner that is the issue not the law. Carrying a club, extendable baton, is illegal so stop doing that.
there is a baton thread only a few clicks away, they can carry that baton. check out the thread I learned alot.
It may be legal in the bar but not outside and if used outside the club it may very well get you extra charges.
gigag04 wrote:I would've held him at gun point until police arrived. Had he run, I would've chased him with my gun out - just from doing it for so long.
Can't advocate this for everyone though.
This is second nature or you.
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Thumpp wrote:As we walked up to the vehicles parked side by side.. I was standing next to my drivers side door and noticed the rear passenger side window was "down" It dawns on me that I have had it broken into.. I take a step to my right to see the damage and realize the bad guy is sitting in the back seat on the far side of the vehicle going through the back seat pockets. my first thoughts are it is a homeless person sleeping in my car..(there are a LOT of homeless people in the area on a regular basis)
I would be tempted to hit the panic button on my remote when I realized there was somebody inside but if I did that I would probably have to clean the seats in addition to replacing the window.
Thumpp wrote:4.) I cannot find any wording in the Texas statutes concerning legally carrying in a 51% establishment once it is closed for business (my thinking is I could rearm after closing while the building is locked and money is being counted. )
That's because it doesn't matter if the business is open or closed. The same rules apply 24x7.
Equo ne credite, Teucri. Quidquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentes
I would be careful with a car burglary as in my experience they can be very dangerous. I have seen a person stabbed to death over 50 car stereo, been shot at going after them, attacked with knives, ect. When I worked K9's we were after them all the time. They carry knives, guns, screw drivers and other items that can be used as a weapon. If they are going to react like that to an armed uniformed LEO, what do you think they will do to a armed citizen? Even attempting to hold somebody at gun point can be interesting since not all crooks will comply with orders. Some will run, some will charge you. IMO best to call 911 and be a good witness. I personally do not advocate chasing them down as foot chases can be very dangerous.
switch wrote:A CHL only allows you to carry a handgun, NOT an illegal knife or club.
The actual law is a bit more complicated than that. As long as you are carrying your gun and have a valid license, you can pretty much carry any knife you want, with exception of a switchblade. I am not going to go into the details, as it has been discussed over and over again.
First.. I regret mentioning the Baton it seems to have spun my questions off in an unintended direction ...( but that would definitely be a judged by 12 situation I don't mind having").
I appreciate the responses .. I forgot about the AT NIGHT provision to the laws.
I would have no reservations about drawing my handgun for defense and possibly to detain the BG. I would definitely not fire on a car thief running away regardless of what he might be stealing. LEO's would be Barbecued alive in the media and probably the Jury in this situation.. I would rather not be in that position regardless of the legality of it.
I appreciate the information on CC of a bar manager and would like to hear more information if anyone has it.
as it stands.. I will probably have the alarm and car safe in the next cpl weeks. I have already started pulling the vehicle up close to the door early in the evening. I may start rearming once the doors are closed and locked to the public. This seems prudent with no down side as long as it is legal. I am uncomfortable carrying even if it is legal during the course of the night.. Small scuffles and having to break up fights and "wrap people up" and show them to the door is not all that uncommon where I work. I don't see any reason to introduce a handgun into that mix. I have read a lot of people comment that a fist fight is the use of deadly force.. I agree out in the wild or being confronted in public, parking lot, dark alley etc.. but in the bar business it is much more common to associate it to peacocks spreading their feathers not intentional deadly assault. I am sure some will disagree but after 25 years as a bartender/manager that is my experience. YMMV
If it helps, the Alcoholic Beverage Code also says that the permittee/licensee can carry a weapon on the premises. And it goes one step further by defining the permittee/licensee as the actual person or corporation that is licensed and all of the employees and agents of the person/corporation.
Basically, the ABC says that any employee of a bar can carry while the Penal Code restricts it to managers and people in control of the premises. Since both cover you as manager, you can legally carry in the bar. A bartender can under the ABC but not under the Penal Code, so it is a slightly more gray area.
[quote} Buried down in 46.02 is a section on Nonapplicability. Paraphrasing, there is a bit stating that 46.02, the unlawful carry of a weapon (handgun, club or illegal knife), does not apply to an alcoholic beverage license or permit holder, OR the employee of a license or permit holder while overseeing the operation of the licensed or permitted premises. Since you are a manager, you should be good to go from a legal standpoint. I think it was on page 47 of the handbook I was given during my first CHL class. It was the 2008 edition. I have no idea how I remember that.
[/quote]
Can't believe it took so long to get an answer about Owner's and Manager carrying in a Bar! Sorta scary!
